Running In The Right Training Zones

TriDot Podcast Episode 332      

Running In The Right Training Zones

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Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. This is episode one in a three-week series that we're going to do, where I bring on different coaches to talk us through how to nail our training zones in our run workouts. Next week we'll talk about our bike workouts, and the following week we'll talk about our swim workouts. When we do a workout, it is crucial to do the workout correctly. I want to pick our coaches brains on how to do that today, specifically talking about running. When we head out for a run session, how can we stay in the right training zones to get the most out of that run workout? Our coaches helping us with this topic today, we've got Coach Stephen Horan from Ironmind Endurance, and I've got professional triathlete and coach Elizabeth James. Coach Stephen, Coach EJ, great to see you guys.

Stephen Horan: Great to be here.

Elizabeth James: Absolutely.

Andrew Harley: I'm Andrew the Average Triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. As always, we'll start off with our warm-up question, settle in for our main set conversation, then wind things down by asking Coach EJ and Coach Stephen an audience question on the Cool Down. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.

Announcer: This is the TriDot Podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world class coaching with every conversation. Let's get started with today's warm-up.

Andrew Harley: So at the time we are recording this episode, and posting this episode, the Winter Olympics in Cortana, Italy are about to begin. And my warm-up question today is what Winter Olympic sport is your favorite to watch on the television? Coach Stephen, what is this for you?

Stephen Horan: Man, this one was a hard one for me. I mean, I love watching sports, and the Olympics are just always fun. I mean it's a little hard out of North Carolina to do a lot of the Winter Olympics, but I love a lot of the skiing events. And I'll tell you what I'm really excited about this year, though, is the new ski mountaineering. This is the first year that they're ‘releasing’ this, and I'm actually excited to see what it is. I don't know what it is, but I've just heard, kind of, what they're doing. They're climbing the mountain with their skis, and then having to ski back down. So I'm actually really excited to watch that.

Andrew Harley: Elizabeth, that sounds like something you would try, first of all.

Elizabeth James: I'm game. This sounds fantastic. I didn't even know that this was being added, so I feel like I need to maybe shift my answers and look for that and see when that's going to be broadcast now.

Andrew Harley: Alright, so we're all going to go find that, because it's new and exciting. Thanks, Stephen, for plugging it. Elizabeth, aside from that, what is your answer to this question?

Elizabeth James: For me, it's always the figure skating. I am just so impressed with the artistry, and athleticism, and how that's combined together. And maybe it's because -- okay, little known fact, I actually took figure skating lessons for a few years as a kid. I didn't get much beyond the basic spins and the tiny jumps, where you barely leave the ice. But I think maybe there's a little bit of me that's like, “Oh, I started kind of doing that.” Not even anywhere close, but just having a little bit of that background, I'm even more impressed with all that it takes to do.

Stephen Horan: So I took them too, by the way, but I did not get to a spin. That is just super hard, I'll tell you. Ice skating is hard.

Elizabeth James: Yes.

Andrew Harley: What floors me is just how heavy the skates are. Everything you're watching them do, they're doing with these multiple pounds of metal and shoe on their foot, and it's absolutely insane. While we're recording this as well -- Stephen and I were talking, Elizabeth, before you hopped on the call -- all three of us were just impacted by a pretty big snow/ice storm that hit a lot of the United States, and it's here in Texas. It's starting to thaw out, finally, but literally a couple days ago -- Elizabeth, I don't know what you were doing -- but my neighbor plays in an adult hockey league, and his son, who's a 3-year-old, plays in a little pee-wee hockey league. We literally were out in the road, on skates, playing ice hockey in the road -- 3 days ago, here, in Dallas, Texas. It was pretty fun, but it was just a reminder for me of like, “Man, these skates are so heavy.” And just what they're able to do wearing those, it's wild. Absolutely wild. My answer here -- this is probably the triathlete in me -- but I've always loved Nordic skiing and cross country skiing. I was born in Florida; I live in Texas, so I've never lived in a climate where this is a thing. But I feel like if I traveled up north during the wintertime, I would rather try cross country skiing, as opposed to downhill skiing. I don't know, it just really appeals to me, so I always like those events. And the one that's particularly interesting as a triathlete is watching the biathlon. This is where they combine cross country skiing with shooting at a gun range. And I'm not really a big, like, “Rah rah,” gun guy, but just the idea of, like, they're doing this highly aerobic sport -- and getting out of breath, and pushing themselves -- and then they have to stop and control their breath -- and totally switch gears to hit the targets with the gun before they can continue skiing -- and they have multiple laps of this. It's really interesting to watch. In the same way I like watching a triathlon, and I like watching marathons, like you guys do. It's a slow burn sport, right? We're totally down to watch something that takes a while to develop. I always like that. Stephen, like you said, there's tons of interesting things to watch this time of year. It's hard to pick just one, but that's the one I'll give a shout out to, is the biathlon. We're going to throw this question out to you, our audience. If you're watching us on YouTube or on Spotify, you can answer the question right below in the comments. With the Winter Olympics right around the corner, what are you looking forward to watching on television the most? Or you can go find this question posed on the TriDot social media accounts. Can't wait to see what you, our audience, have to say.

Announcer: Let’s go.

Andrew Harley: Onto our main set topic, where Coach Elizabeth and Coach Stephen are going to help us do a better job of staying in the right training zones when we do our run workouts. And being the first episode in this series, I got to start with the ‘why’, right? And really, this is for the swim, bike, and run, but for the run specifically, why is staying in the right training zones during our workouts so important in the first place? Coach Elizabeth?

Elizabeth James: I'd say that the main reason is that it's going to optimize the training benefits. So different heart rate, or different effort zones, target different fitness adaptations. And staying in the right zone really ensures that you're working on the specific goals that you should be doing for that session. Whether it's building endurance in the aerobic zone or developing speed or power in those higher zones. Not only does this help with the training adaptations, but managing your intensity allows you to recover well and continue training. So it allows you to train day after day, and that consistency is so key. That prevents burnout, it prevents injury, and it just really makes sure that you can continue to progress as an athlete.

Andrew Harley: Coach Stephen, anything to add?

Stephen Horan: Yeah, Elizabeth hit it exactly right. I think the other part is realizing that when you're going above the zones -- which is very typical for most athletes -- you're building this residual stress. So that residual stress ends up becoming something that continues lingering on, and it's going to impact your future fitness, and your ability to be able to hit your future workouts. And I think that's just something we got to continue to pay attention to. And, again, making sure -- that's what TriDot does a really good job with -- is really just saying, “Hey, do this at this time.” And if you're following those, it's building that right level of stress, so you can go do the next workouts and continue to build.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I know before I was using TriDot -- and I was just kind of training on my own -- I would get off work, and I would just kind of go off of vibes, right? What do I feel like doing today? Do I feel like going for-- hopping on the trainer and doing a bike session? Do I feel like going for a run? And I knew I needed to mix up all three sports, but I had no idea how to do that, right? If I felt like, man, I want to run today, and I want to run hard -- I wasn't necessarily thinking of, well, what did I do yesterday on the bike? How you do in your run session today is going to impact your bike session tomorrow, and it impacts your swim session the day after that. It all interplays. I've heard Jeff Booherr, our founder and CEO, talk about the levers, right? You can only pull so many levers of training stress. How much are you pulling on the swim lever, versus the bike lever, versus the run lever? TriDot helps manage that right across all three sports, and even in the individual sport that we're talking about today, for running. I'm curious as coaches -- both of you work with athletes all through the year, training for run events, triathlon events -- what mistakes do you see your athletes make the most often when it comes to running in the right zones? Maybe asked in a different way -- what are the first bad habits you have to break when you start working with a new athlete? Coach Stephen?

Stephen Horan: We sort of just alluded to it a little bit. I mean, most athletes, when they start out running, they're just going to be running too hard. When we say you got to run a certain level -- we know how to push ourselves, but if we're not really measuring it -- and know how to measure it -- then we're always going to end up being either not hard enough or too hard. And that's typically in that Zone 3, right? A lot of coaches call it the ‘gray zone’. You really don't want to do a lot of training in that Zone 3, because you're not really building the aerobic base that you're trying to go do, right, and you're not really building the anaerobic space that you're trying to go build. So you're really having to balance that. And so most athletes, you got to break that habit of just going out and just running on feel, because that feel is going to be Zone 3. And you got to force yourself to really run Zone 2 -- slower than a lot of people sometimes want, right? Because they get locked into their Strava, and their Garmin, and their pace, and then they don't want to slow down, right? Because they got to make sure, “Hey, I'm running an 8:30,” or “If I'm not breaking an 8:30, I'm not going fast enough.” And I think that's just really the mindset you got to break for folks, right? You can't always run hard because when you end up doing that, you -- most of the time -- are just going to be in Zone 3. I mean, I find Zone 4s are hard workouts themselves. Getting above and really hitting Zone 4 is hard, right? So typically, you're not going to do that just on your own.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I was definitely the athlete that -- when you start doing this structured training, it really highlights it, right? TriDot gives you your zones, “Oh, okay, Zone 2 today. Let's see what that is.” And you get out there, and you’re like, “This is really easy. There's no way this is right.” It really highlights that when you thought you were going easy, before TriDot, you weren't going easy enough. And then you get to Zone 4 and Zone 5, and you’re like, “Oh my god, this is really spicy. When I thought I was going hard before, I wasn't going hard enough.” Exactly right, Coach Stephen. That was my experience as well. Elizabeth, same question over to you. When you get a new athlete, what do you find you have to teach them about staying in the right zone, straight out of the gate?

Elizabeth James: I feel like Stephen covered that super well. It's unfortunately, Andrew, not going off vibes. New athletes are maybe a little more hesitant to use the data to guide their training. If they're used to going by feel, all of a sudden, they do have these tools, and they are locked in a little bit more to training through a specific zone. So they might be a little hesitant to do that. They might not understand why it's important. And I think, as Stephen highlighted, that athletes don't love to go slow for those easy recovery runs. In fact, I've had athletes that just skip the easy runs, because they're like, “What's the purpose of that?” And so that's one of the things that, as a coach, I really feel like we have to do a good job of educating our athletes, and letting them understand that skipping an easy run just because it's easy, you're missing out on critical benefits there. It's important for the aerobic base building. That's a necessary part for building your endurance, your overall performance. It's not just the hard days that make you a better athlete. There are different training intensities for a reason, so don't skip those easy runs. The other thing that I see is very poor pacing in workouts when athletes typically start. And again, not everybody, but some athletes that start off way too fast on those intervals. It's like, “Alright, we're doing threshold intervals,” and they're like, “Sweet! This is like sprinting.” And they go out of the gate, and they just absolutely obliterate the pace for the first two, and then they can't do reps three, four, and five. So, again, the excitement, the adrenaline -- they get going a little bit too hot and blow up later, because they're not using those intensity guides to really monitor how they're doing. So, going too hard, going too easy. Again, we've got both ends of the spectrum here, and it's really learning that each workout is prescribed for a specific benefit, and it has a place in the overall training structure.

Andrew Harley: I'm thinking we need some TriDot t-shirts that say, “Data is greater than vibes,” just as a reminder in the modern landscape, where everybody loves going off of vibes -- myself included. So when an athlete fires up TriDot, they get into the app, they see, “Okay, I got a run workout today. Let's see what it says I need to do.” We see our workout and, depending on what the workout is -- depending on what your settings are in TriDot -- the zones you see can either be heart rate zones, they can be power -- as in watts -- zones, or they can be pace. And this is -- as we're talking about the biggest mistake athletes make -- I see a lot of athletes, when they start with TriDot, and they don't realize this. It might be a heart rate day, and they're looking at the, “Okay, it's all Zone 2 today. Great.” They go out, and they do Zone 2 pace, get a bad score, and they're like, “What happened? I thought I did this perfectly.” So I know it takes folks just a second to realize that, “Oh, there's different ways to do my zones.” Elizabeth, what does an athlete need to look for in the app to know, is today a power day? Is it a pace day? Or is it a heart rate day?

Elizabeth James: I love this question -- and maybe it's because I just find the little icons in there to be genius -- but it's fascinating because you look on the training plan, and for the session that day, it's either going to have a little heart icon, which means you need to follow heart rate. It's going to have a little clock icon, which means you're following pace. For athletes that do have the opportunity to utilize power for run workouts, instead of pace, they may see the lightning bolt for power. So you're really going to go off of either heart rate, or pace, or power, just depending on what tools you have for training. But yeah, it's super easy once you have that light bulb moment of like, “Oh my gosh, it tells me right here which one I should really be following.” I'm sure we're going to get into why there's heart rate workouts, why there's pace workouts, but it's so cleanly laid out in the app once you know what you're looking for.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, and lots of fun stuff coming in the app. Elizabeth and I are on staff calls all the time, where we get a glimpse of what the software team is up to. It's so interesting hearing the science of UX design -- which UX design is the design of what the app looks like and how the app works. And it's so interesting to catch glimpses of that. RunDot just got a huge facelift on the mobile app, specifically -- how it looks, how it operates. It is so slick and so cool. And a lot of that is coming to TriDot very, very, very, very soon. So get excited, all my TriDot users listening. The mobile app is about to get -- I don't even know if I'm allowed to say this yet, but it's about to get really, really dope. Coach Stephen, I'll throw this one over to you. Take us into the science of what TriDot is doing to determine our zones. Because, I mean, just for the three of us on this call, if we all were to have a similar session on a similar day, our zones would look very different. Why is that? What is TriDot doing behind the scenes, in the tech, to determine what our zone should be for running?

Stephen Horan: Yeah, I mean, first off, TriDot does not use a standard 220 minus your age. That's very common that a lot of people -- if you go search on Google or ChatGPT, “Oh, here's the simple math.” TriDot does a lot. Number one, it's based on your assessment data. So typically for running, you're going to have either a 5k time trial, a 10k time trial if you're super fast, or if you're just beginning, you have the option for a 12-minute time trial. All of those are going to really help set the appropriate paces. And again, that's what the threshold pace ends up being -- that then is calculated based on your environment. So using environmental normalization, depending on where you're going. I mean, I'm in North Carolina, and today it's 38 degrees and ice on the ground. Now granted, TriDot not seeing there's ice on the ground to slow me down, but it's taking temperature versus if I'm running in June and it's 95 degrees and 100% humidity. It's going to give me different zones to be able to go target based on that assessment. Now, whether it's in pace or power, and even your heart rate, it's calculating all of that in your assessment. Power is calculated using a stride pod -- I know we're probably going to go into that. Most people are going to be using pace, and a lot of people are also using heart rate. And I think those are what are calculated there, so that becomes the important part. The other thing that takes into consideration, again, not just the environment, but the specific time of day that you're doing, also. So a lot of people just say, “Oh, it's the day.” But in TriDot, you have the ability to set the physical time you're going to work out. And again, I'm using North Carolina, where I'm based -- and it's like, hey, 5am workout when it's dark is going to be a lot cooler than running at 11am, right before lunch and it's very humid. So it's taking all of those things into consideration to be able to go help you be able to do that. Now, I'm actually going to jump over just a little bit -- because it jumps into racing also, because RaceX takes another step into it, based on your actual course that you're going to be running. It actually looks at the course and says, “Hey, what does that ended up being?” And so that becomes an important part.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I love that. And I'm glad you brought up, Stephen, just how there is a component where it's looking at your actual weather today. It's looking at your environment today. And you can, in your settings in TriDot, tell TriDot, “Okay, I normally do my workout at this time at this day,” and so it'll just update automatically. So if you're ever going to work out at an unusual time -- or maybe you usually work out indoors and you're going to take this workout outdoors -- there is some steps you need to take in the app to help TriDot get those zones right before your workout. Stephen, what does the athlete need to do to make sure that they are communicating with TriDot on those variables?

Stephen Horan: Yeah, typically, those variables there -- it's going into the app, opening up the app and saying -- and you just used the example – “Am I going to run indoors today, or I'm going to run outdoors?” There's a toggle there. It's just a button; you can just hit indoor or outdoor. Today, or excuse me, yesterday, I ran indoor, and I typically don't run indoors. I had to make sure that I clicked it and then ensured that actually went up. Because it's setting a different temperature for indoor setting versus the outdoor setting. The other thing is setting the time that you actually do that. There's default settings that are within TriDot. You can also override those settings with the specific time. That's within the advanced settings feature that you can go and say, “Hey, I run early in the morning, so my runs are at 5am. So I'm setting 5am as my default.” If something happens and I'm going later specifically -- I typically would give athletes a 30 minutes plus or minus. I don't try to get it perfect. But within 30 minutes, make sure you're within that time, and then you make that adjustment. And again, you hit the big one. Sometimes I have to go and run after work, where I ended up not being able to run in the morning for whatever reason. So I do want to go change it from a.m. to p.m. -- making sure that the weather's set correctly, and that I'm getting that put into place.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. And there's times, there's days I've done that. And I think of our Texas summers, Elizabeth, where if I run at 7am it's 96 degrees, and if I run at noon, it's 100 degrees. Okay, not that big of a difference. So you might make that update, and you see very little change -- that can be normal. Or sometimes it can be pretty substantial change, depending on indoor/outdoor, inside/outside, all that kind of stuff. It's pretty --

Stephen Horan: There’s probably one other – sorry -- there's probably one other that I didn't -- for people that travel, there's also the setting you got to change where your location is. So that also becomes important. Most people are probably set on your home, but you can change it to be current location to be able to change that. So that is another setting, that I didn't highlight, that I think is important for folks. Because I do travel a little bit, so if I'm in Asia, as an example, I want to make sure that I'm set for Asia -- where I'm physically located at that point in time.

Andrew Harley: I remember Jeff Raines, who is one of our beloved coaches. He's on the podcast regularly. He and his family moved a couple of years ago from Austin, Texas, to Midland, Texas -- which doesn't sound like that big of a jump, but it's actually a pretty decent elevation change. When he punched it into TriDot of, “Hey, I'm in Midland now,” all of his zones got a little bit easier because TriDot was detecting, “Oh, you're at a higher elevation than you used to be.” And then even more interesting, because this is in the algorithms, the longer he was in Midland, the less -- it started backing that off because his body was adjusting to life at that elevation. So, anyway, a lot of really interesting things happening there. Good add there, Stephen, for sure. There's a couple of guys in the area that I run with occasionally, that use TriDot for their training, and we'll compare notes on Zone 2 days. Where if we go for a Zone 2 run together, the ceiling for my Zone 2 heart rate zone is like 152, 153. Elizabeth, what's yours, being a similar age? Is it up there?

Elizabeth James: No, I have just a super low heart rate. So for me, it's 132. But that's -- if I'm at 160, I'm seeing stars. I have a super low heart rate across the board.

Andrew Harley: Interesting.

Elizabeth James: Yeah.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, interesting. So for me, at 150, I'm pretty comfortable. And the guys I train with, that are a little bit older than me, they're closer to you. We're running together, and I'm like, “Oh, my heart rate's 150.” And we're just chatting in conversation, and they're like, “I would be dead at 150.” Their max is 130. So it's really cool to just compare notes with  other athletes and hear what TriDot is doing for them versus what TriDot's doing for you. And it just gives you the confidence that, “Oh, it really is looking at who I am and dialing this in for who I am.” Anyway, spent more time on this than I planned, but super interesting stuff. Elizabeth, our next question -- and I'll throw this one over to you. When we think about our running -- okay, so we've identified, I'm going for a run. Here's the zones TriDot's given me. Here's how it came up with these zones. Now we're talking about you're going for the run. You've got to monitor your data to know if you're staying in the right zone. So what does an athlete need to know while they're running? What pace they're going, what their heart rate is, and all that jazz.

Elizabeth James: This is a great question, and I would say that this is one that I frequently get from athletes, that they're getting started. They're like, “Okay, what do I need in order to follow these intensity zones?” I've already given them the whole speech about we're not going too hard, we're not going too easy. We got to stay within the zones. They're like, “Okay, great. What do I need to do to actually be able to do that?” One of the first things that I recommend that athletes get is a heart rate monitor. I'm still a big proponent for the chest strap. It still seems to have the best accuracy. The wrist, arm sensors -- they're great for convenience. I do think they're getting better. I still encourage my athletes to get a very reliable heart rate monitor, so that we can really track how their body is responding to the particular efforts that they're giving on a daily basis. If they have the ability to get a GPS watch to pair with that heart rate monitor, bonus. That's great. Now we've got heart rate, now we've got pace – you are set. Some athletes love to really dig in a little bit more to some of the metrics, and so they will get a running power meter, particularly like a foot pod. This isn't something that I recommend every athlete get, but I will say that I do have one athlete that I coach that is in a mountainous area. And for her, having this power meter is so key. She can hardly go for a run without hitting at least 500 feet of elevation, just in the quick, easy run. And so for us to be able to monitor the effort that she has -- and we really got to follow power more so than pace for her -- that's a great thing. If you live in a place that has super hilly terrain, power might be more of a metric that you would follow than pace, because you're just going up and down all the time. And then we need stuff like TriDot to be able to analyze and actually apply it.

Andrew Harley: Hey, yeah.

Elizabeth James: So we can't forget about that. We can have the heart rate monitor, the GPS watch, we can have the stride power pod, but what do we do with that information? That's where TriDot puts the nice bow on all of it. We understand how that data can be utilized. So yeah, heart rate monitor, GPS watch; power meter, maybe. I will say -- and Andrew, you kind of alluded to this as well -- there are becoming more options for athletes that don't necessarily have GPS watches. Things like being able to carry your phone on workouts is becoming more of an option. So, whereas there might have been a barrier before for athletes that didn't want to spend $500 on a fancy triathlon GPS running watch, there are other avenues that are opening, so that they can have as accurate of data without the expense of that. So kind of an overview, maybe another little sneak peek of things to come.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, very, very good. I want to walk through -- we've already identified when we have our run workout, we're specifically following heart rate, or pace, power. I have a couple questions about each of those metrics. So when a workout is based on a heart rate zone, these are very often -- almost exclusively if you have the right tech -- Zone 2 sessions. Elizabeth, what tips do you have for keeping our heart rate in Zone 2? You guys both know from the Facebook group and the TriDot community hub, this drives people bonkers when they first join and start doing our training and actually paying attention, because they're like -- some people are walking, some people are run-walking, some people are like, “I'm running so slow. Is this actually doing something?” It drives people bonkers. It's hilarious. It takes some adjusting. So Elizabeth, what are your tips for staying in Zone 2 when it's a heart rate set; a heart rate-based session?

Elizabeth James: Yeah, as you alluded to, this can be difficult just to wrap your mind around. And I think one of the things that I find most beneficial is really embracing the technology and having that immediate feedback of what your heart rate is. So on my Zone 2 heart rate run sessions, I just have the screen up on my watch that shows heart rate. I don't see anything else. I don't see what my pace is. I don't see even the total time. I just know that this is Zone 2, and I'm monitoring the heart rate. Now, what's fantastic is some of these smartwatches also have alerts, and you can set that so that if you are going above Zone 2, you get a nice little alert on the watch, and it's basically telling you, “Hey, slow down, back off.” So you got to back off enough so that you're staying within that zone. That might mean jogging a little bit slower. That might mean walking for a bit to get the heart rate under control, so that you're staying within that aerobic zone and really reaping the benefits of it. So that's one of the things I do; I only look at heart rate. I don't allow myself to look at pace because that's typically when ego gets in the way. I'm like, “I know I could be running faster than this. Are you kidding? That's terrible.” I mean, talk about putting the ego aside when it's 110 on a Texas day, and you're like, “Okay, I feel like I am shuffling out here, but clearly, this is as fast as I can go to reap the benefits of this Zone 2 session and keep my heart rate at a manageable way.” So, yeah, that utilizing technology is really a fantastic way to just make sure that we're staying there. I will give a couple other tricks, though. Because even though we have technology to guide us to that right zone, some people still find it very difficult to slow down enough to do that. So I always tell my athletes, “Start slower than you think you need to go.” Because sometimes they get out the door and they're like, “Yes, alright, Zone 2!” And their heart rate spikes immediately. It's like, no. Let's build into this. It's going to be better to go into it gradually than to feel like you're spiking the heart rate early and then having to slow down, and spiking it, and slowing down. Slowly build in, and I think that that's going to be a more beneficial session. The other thing is just to use controlled breathing. One of the things that I've worked on quite a bit is just making sure that I have a good, steady, controlled breath during my Zone 2 sessions. I find that that helps keep the heart rate low as well. Check your form, check your cadence. This is the opportunity to work on efficiency. If you are running efficiently, the heart rate is going to be lower. Find what that good rhythm is for you. And then, make sure you're staying hydrated and fueled. As much as there is the pacing portion of it -- because the heart rate is such a responsive factor, there are things, like fueling and hydration, that do influence it. If you are incredibly dehydrated, the heart is having to work harder. So just make sure that you are fueled well for those sessions. Make sure that you are hydrated well for those sessions. Otherwise the heart rate is going to have a response that isn't even necessarily based off of solely the pace you're going. But maybe how well you didn't sleep last night, or how you haven't had any drinks of water and you've only had 4 cups of coffee. So those can be things to help you stay in Zone 2 as well.

Andrew Harley: That's not personal to me at all. That doesn't hit me somewhere where it hurts at all.

Stephen Horan: Only three, guys. Only three.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, literally guys -- for a long time I didn't listen to music when I ran. I didn't really need it. I got plenty of other ways that I can occupy my mind. And I finally got one of the newer Garmin models that has where you can sync your Spotify to your watch. “Okay, let me put some music on my watch.” And so I started listening to the music again on my runs. And I've found, since doing that, I don't need pump-up music on a Zone 4, Zone 5 session. I don't need it. I've got enough to focus on. I've got plenty of stuff going on in my head. That is hard enough as it is; I don't need that stimulation. What I need is relaxing music on Zone 2 days. So the only playlist I have synced to my Garmin watch is my chill music playlist. I fire it up on Zone 2 days to help me stay in Zone 2 and to remind myself, this should be easy. This should be relaxing. This should be chill pace. So anyway, that's one small thing I do that that I found has actually helped me, now that I have that particular Garmin watch model. But Coach Stephen, any other advice that you give your athletes -- that EJ somehow didn't cover -- when it comes to keeping your heart rate in the right zone on a heart rate workout?

Stephen Horan: Yeah, she covered, really, the big ones. But I'll throw some non-typical ideas out for folks, especially for Zone 2. I mean, I find Zone 2 is where I'll go run new routes. A lot of times, when you're having to be so focused on Zone 4, Zone 5, you're running the same routes because you don't have a lot of time to think. So I think going and finding new routes is one, and adding something like trails every once in a while for Zone 2 is another really good idea, just to get out. You're also in a little bit more of the nature, right, than you typically may be. And so just doing something a little different just takes that away. But I mean, EJ hit all the big ones, right? Focus on form; focus on breathing. Do those, and I think that really helps.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, very, very good. My last heart rate-based question -- and you guys have given us so much good stuff already. But Elizabeth, I'm curious what you think here. On a heart rate-based session, does power and pace matter at all? I mean, you said you literally don't even look at anything other than heart rate. But is there any advantage to an athlete maybe keeping those things up on their watch face to know what they are? Or is it just straight up -- listen to your heart rate, ignore the rest?

Elizabeth James: I love that you asked this question. This is fantastic. I actually just had this discussion with an athlete the other day because within that session, yes, I only look at heart rate. That is your primary focus. But power or pace, they still matter. It's just in the supporting way. And we don't necessarily use them as guidance for that session, but they are all related. So in that Zone 2 aerobic session -- let's use that as an example. You are staying within that specific heart rate zone because you want to get the physiological adaptations for aerobic endurance. But, having pace or power as the secondary metric that we can look back on allows us to see personal growth over time. So we can track and say, “Alright, on your Zone 2 days, you are staying within this heart rate range. What has your pace progressed to?” And this is one of the fascinating things that I love going back and looking at athletes with, because I have -- and this was the athlete that we were just talking -- she had started at a 10:30 mile pace for her Zone 2 runs, being able to run-walk a little bit, and she's now down to a 7:45 pace for her Zone 2 runs. And it's like, “Look, you're still within the same heart rate range, but just look at how efficient your run has become. Look at how much fitness you've gained.” And so if we only ever tracked heart rate on those, we wouldn't be able to make that comparison. We wouldn't be able to see the long-term growth and be like, “Wow. This is amazing. Look at how much this has shifted.” So we do still want to track them. We do still want to have that data for the context of everything else that's going on, but we don't want to use that as the driving force within that specific session itself.

Andrew Harley: I love that. And it's humbling, Elizabeth, when it's the other way, right? Because for -- using myself as the example.

Elizabeth James: That’s true. I mean, I have thought about it goes other way, too.

Andrew Harley: I bet you have.

Elizabeth James: So we’re using a positive example, but I understand.

Andrew Harley: I'll use myself the other way. Because when you're returning to training, maybe from an injury or from a break -- and for me it was a break. When our daughter was born a couple years ago, I took a huge step back from actively training and racing to enjoy being dad to a newborn. And I'm now starting to run again a little bit more regularly, and it's humbling. But you need to be real with yourself, right? My Zone 2 pace -- I could be in Zone 2 heart rate at a 7:30, 7:45 pace, and I can't do that right now. Right now, it's more like 9:30-, 10-minute miles to stay in Zone 2 pace. And that's in the wintertime; it's not even hot yet. But I need to know that -- I need to be realistic with myself and say, “Hey, even though I wish this wasn't the case” -- it doesn't matter that I could hold 8-minute miles in Zone 2 two years ago -- I've got to be honest with myself, and back off the pace, and pay attention to that heart rate so it can go the other way. But it is interesting, Elizabeth, to see where your heart rate is in relation to pace, here and there, even if you're not watching it during your training session. Coach Stephen, I'm going to send this over to you, for us to switch gears and go from heart rate to pace zones. When our workout is based on a pace zone -- typically these workouts are going to have different intensities. We're going to have a mix of Zone 2, Zone 3, sometimes 4 and 5, sometimes talking about MAV shuttles. We'll have all out sprinting Zone 6. In a pace zone workout, athletes will see a pace range, right? It's not going to be like, “Oh, eight minutes.” It's going to be, “Stay in the zone from this to this.” How can an athlete best stay in the range that TriDot gives them for each zone?

Stephen Horan: Yeah, I tell you, it's hard. You joked on MAV shuttles; I always struggle. I know a lot of people love MAVs, and I struggle being able to hit the pace and getting it fast enough. But it's hard, right? Realize that we're using a machine that's linking up to satellites to be able to look at a lot of the pace. So there's a lag that actually occurs with the GPS, and I think that's the first important thing to realize. You're not going to get that instant pace on your watch, right? So if you're just using your watch, it's going to be -- you got to either jump ahead, especially on MAV shuttles. You can't wait for the timer to go off and then think you're just going to get it. Because when it's 30 seconds that you got to go, or 20 seconds that you got to go run at Zone 6, or Zone 5, all out sprint, you can't do that. So I think that's important to realize, is don't chase that instant pace because then you end up going too hard, and then now you got to be able to back off into that comfortable. I think that's one thing that you got to do. You also got to be very cautious on what screen you have on your Garmin or your watch also. Because a lot of times there's the balance of what is the instant pace, versus your lap pace, versus GAP -- which is grade adjusted pace. EJ talked about one of her athletes that's always climbing -- very different pace than if you're on flat or you're running on a track. So you really got to look at that. I try to do a 10-second average overall, for mine, is what I use -- just to be able to manage it, both on the bike and then also on the run. Just so I'm not spiking it and going up and down, where I'm ‘chasing’, quote unquote, that overall pace on the watch. Because that is the hard part, right? When you're trying to hold for -- just call it a 10-minute Zone 4. It's hard, right? And you're trying to -- you're sitting there looking at your watch, you're jumping up and down, you're going all over the place -- and being able to chase that is hard. So I think it really is about, number one, look at your settings on your watch, making sure they're set appropriately. Set them for GAP, because if you're running up a little bit of hill, where you are going to inadvertently slow down, it's very different. Because TriDot's giving you GAP paces. It really is saying what you're going to do on that grade-adjusted area. And so that becomes important. The other one is really don't try to chase it. Especially at the very beginning, people want to go out too fast, and then you're backing off. And then you're going up and down around it because a lot of these zones aren't that big. When you think about 30-second differences in mile, it's not that big of a difference. And that's the other part. The other one that I would say is really pay attention to your cadence. We didn't get into that, but I think understanding your cadence for some of them, and saying, “Okay, is the cadence part of it? Is it the stride part of it?” What are you really doing to be able to speed that up? We're not going into running form here, but there's a lot of different techniques, right, to be able to get some of that different speed -- on how you lean and what you're able to go do -- but really pay attention to those. And I think looking at, like I said, your watch, looking at what are you physically doing as you're going through each of those zones to understand that overall impact.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I love Stephen, you pointing out that, in that range, there's some wiggle room, but it's not a ton of wiggle room. Something that I found, I love going to the track. I love a good track session. For those that know the Texas area, my wife and I used to live in Grapevine, now we live in Flower Mound. Just two different suburbs that are in the same corner of Dallas/Fort Worth. But in Grapevine, we lived close to a track that the public was allowed to run on. So I would just go run the track for all my sessions. And I found if I was at the track, I got pretty good at holding spot on the exact pace I needed, lap after lap, after lap, after lap, after lap. It's a very controlled environment. That was a skill that I had. So if I wanted to flirt with the higher end of a zone, I could hold it pretty well without going over the Zone. And now that we live in Flower Mound -- Flower Mound does not have a track close by that is open to the public. So it's either drive 20 minutes for a track or just run around the neighborhood. So I run around the neighborhood, and it's more undulating terrain. I can't control my pace to the nth of a degree that I used to be able to do on the track. So kind of what you said, Stephen, now I find myself aiming for the middle of my zone, so that if my pace does ebb and flow a little bit -- as I'm cornering, and going up, and going down -- I've got a little more wiggle room there without leaving my zone. So, Elizabeth, that brings me to the next principle I wanted to ask you guys about is holding the right pace is easier on a track. Or it can be easier, obviously, on a treadmill, where you're inside and the belt is doing the pace setting for you. And it becomes more challenging when we're running around town, or if we're running on a trail. How can we best stay in the right pace across these different environments and terrains?

Elizabeth James: I think one of the things that you just mentioned about running around your neighborhood and just adjusting your expectation of what that session is going to look like. I mean, I love running on the track. I love running on the treadmill. So if I know that one of those sessions isn't going to be in that controlled environment, the first thing I do is adjust my mindset and know that this may not be as precise as if I was in an environment where I can control a little bit more. And I find that adjusting my mindset and my expectations on that allows me just that little bit more of grace and freedom, within that session, to understand that the terrain is going to fluctuate, the conditions are going to be a little bit different. So instead of focusing on just a fixed number where, I mean, seriously, I will write it out when I go to the track of like, how many seconds per 200 should I be on this lap? I'm not going to figure that out when I'm running around the neighborhood.

Andrew Harley: Yeah.

Elizabeth James: So instead of fixating on that single number for every 200 that I'm going to be for track laps, just look for that range and be aligned with the target zone. And again, I mean, we talked about some of these advanced features of GPS watches and the technology we have available to us. Some of the GPS watches do have the feature where they can recognize grade adjusted pace. So one of the things that I do is I will push my TriDot session to my Garmin watch and make sure that the pace is there on grade adjusted pace. Then I have the ranges, and if I'm going above it, if I'm going below it, I get the little alerts to help me stay within that zone again. So there's some fantastic features. It does take a little bit of time to get used to, “Okay, how do I push my session to my Garmin? And how do I make sure that it's in grade adjusted pace?” But once you have that figured out, it's a fantastic tool to just help you stay within that prescribed range for the workout session as well.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. When I first started trying great adjusted pace, it is a slightly delayed response. It takes -- in my case, a Garmin -- it takes my Garmin two, three seconds to realize, “Oh, okay, we're going up a hill,” or “We're going down a hill.” But once you realize that -- okay, maybe my TrainX score won't be a spot on 100, but it's definitely going to come a lot closer than not having grade adjusted pace. And power replaces all of this, if you have access to a Stryd power meter, or power built into your watch -- we'll talk about that in just a few seconds. But, Stephen, I'll throw this one over to you first. My last question about pace is it's one thing to hold Zone 4, 5, 6, right? The really spicy intervals. It's one thing to hold those the first interval, or the second interval. But sometimes, man, if I have five intervals of Zone 5, man, that fourth and fifth one get hard to stay in the right pace, right? You might be like, “Man, I'm a good runner. Look at me go. I'm nailing my paces for the first half of the workout.” And you get to the back half and you're like, “Oh no, what is happening? I'm starting to lose track. I'm starting to lose sight of the pace range I'm supposed to stay in.” What tips do you have for physically withstanding those last couple of spicy intervals, and mentally withstanding those last couple spicy intervals?

Stephen Horan: The very first tip is you can't go all out on the very first one, right? You got to make sure you're trying to be consistent. If you're reading the TriDot workouts, it really says stay consistent throughout. So it doesn't mean -- and I think it was even this week's podcast on swimming -- it's saying, “Hey, we want to guide you to be able to go faster, the last ones,” right? So go a little slower at first. Just stay at the low end of the zone and walk your way up that zone throughout. That's one of the tricks that I try to do. I mean, it's still hard, right? I mean, that many Zone 5s, it's a hard workout. I do try to prep mentally in between. Be very conscious on the recoveries. A lot of times when you're doing Zone 5s, you're doing a Zone 1 recovery, right? It actually says “walk” in between. So I think be very conscious of that. I think we always, “Oh, I got to run,” and you're going to – inadvertently, you're going to go run Zone 3 -- we talked about that earlier -- in between. So you don't get the recovery. Take the time to be able to go do that. I mean, personally, when I run all the time, I'm always carrying a handheld water bottle, all the time. Even on the track I do it. So I force myself to drink during that time, to catch my breath, and use those recoveries appropriately. So I think a lot of people just sometimes go through those recoveries like, “Oh, I just got to run, and I'm just slowing down.” No, get your heart rate under control. Breathe. Drink. Do all of those other things, and I find it does help to be able to build that. The other thing is the full mental side is walk-down versus walk-up. So if you have five, “Hey, I've done number five; I'm doing number four,” and going down so it doesn't feel like I'm counting up. That's just how I do that mentally, because when you're counting up, it's like, “Oh, man, this sucks,” versus, “Oh, I'm at one now, and that's all I have.” So again, it's just a small mental trick that I try to do for that.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, great. Elizabeth -- we have our note sheets in front of us, and you have a copious amount of notes on this question. I'm sure Stephen hit a lot of them, but any additional principles or tricks that you do in your own training to really amp yourself up to see those hard intervals through to the end?

Elizabeth James: Yeah, I mean, Stephen hit on the big things, but I'll add just a couple of the other things that I sometimes do. I'm big on the positive self-talk. When things get hard physically, I try to make sure that I am staying strong mentally. Like, “One interval at a time,” or “Steady and strong.” Or I think about, “Alright, core and cadence,” or “I can do this.” I mean, it's amazing how many times I'll repeat, “I can do this, I can do this, I can do this,” in my head as I'm on that last interval. And it works -- our mind is a powerful tool. Being able to tap into that and use that positive self-talk and visualization is a key in when it's getting hard. Visiting things again like breath control, good form -- that can be a key for the end of the session. Sometimes, some of that extra fatigue we feel is because our form is breaking down and we aren't as efficient. It's amazing how I can be in the middle of the last interval and I'm like, “Oh my gosh, I'm dying. I'm not quite sure how this is.” And I'm like, “My cadence is really slow, too. I should probably pick that up.” And I do. And I'm like, “Actually, that feels a little easier. I think I can get this one done.” So revisiting things that make us more efficient runners can sometimes help. And then, I mean, one of the things that I’ve learned a little bit more to embrace is just appreciating those hard efforts. And maybe it was cause I’ve had so many injuries, and so being able to actually run hard, I’m like, “Oh, thank goodness I can at least suffer like this again.” But just knowing that this is going to make me better. Like, yes, this is hard, but, man, what a privilege it is to suffer like this. And I am just so happy that I can be in this position of pushing my body, and pushing my mind, and getting better. And that appreciation for it is a big mental switch for me. I probably should have saved that one for last, but I mean, I’ll always come back to nutrition/hydration. Think about, as Stephen was saying, hydrating during those breaks. Take a gel. You might need it if you’re doing one of those long interval sessions. Think about supporting your body to be able to do that work.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I heard a coach on the podcast – years and years and years ago, so I'm blanking on who it was exactly -- but somebody pointed out the fact that when TriDot's prescribing you those intervals -- those days where you have multiple Zone 4 intervals, multiple Zone 5 intervals, multiple MAV shuttles in Zone 6 -- it's the last intervals that get you the biggest gains from that session. And yeah, there's obviously benefit to doing all of them ,and the first ones set up the last ones, but that's where you're really pushing your body and developing more gains. So I get to that point in the workout, and I start to fade, and I'm like, “Oh no, I’m not wasting this workout. I've worked too hard today to not get the most out of this workout.” That gives me that, “Let me attack this last one. Let me attack this last interval or two because I want to make sure I'm not wasting the workout, or not coming up short on what this workout could have been today.” And I remind myself of that in those later intervals. Two more main set questions, and we're onto the Cool Down. Coach Stephen, talk to us about power. That's the third metric. If an athlete has access to run power, their zones can be prescribed by power. And that is really interesting. I like this a lot, personally, for my runs around town where the terrain is more undulating. I won't necessarily reference power if I'm on the track; I just like pace at that point. But if somebody has power, what do we see, and how do we stay in those power zones? Is it much different from pace? Or is it just the same thing, different number?

Stephen Horan: Really it is the same thing, just a different number. I mean, you're going to see the lightning bolt on your actual workout. Think about power being just really more accurate because it's measuring true output versus taking weather in consideration. When I say weather, specifically wind. I mean, TriDot does temperature, but TriDot doesn't know how windy it is when you're actually running. So you're going to be able to pick that up. The other thing -- and EJ talked about it, you just talked about it -- running around town, you have these undulations, so you can become more consistent. I mean, heart rate lags as you're climbing, so you're always going to have a lag with heart rate. Your pace is going to slow as you're climbing, but you can keep a very consistent power, right? And that actually becomes more accurate for you. I mean, a lot of athletes -- I do measure power. I haven't truly converted to always running with power, but have found that it's just really, really accurate to be able to go do that, to be able to go around. But again, it's just a different number that you're tracking. It'll go to your watch, too. Most power -- the pods will go, actually, to your Garmin watch, or whatever watch they'll sync to there. You can read that on your screen; set it up -- just like what we were talking about with GAP -- with just average pace, with even just heart rate. One of the things that I do on my screen is I actually look at pace, heart rate, and power. So I'm slightly different than EJ. I always like to look at all three and kind of like, “Hey, how are they fitting? Am I seeing that to be able to go and do that?” But again, it's really just an advanced pace-type of process to be able to go do that.

Andrew Harley: And that was my experience as well because we -- when we first started accounting for grade adjusted pace in TriDot, I started using that running around town. And so I could see -- I talked about earlier, “Oh, I'm now going up a slight incline, what is this pace equate to?” And it was good. It was definitely an improvement over just ‘guesstimating’ at how much to slow down on an uphill, or speed up on a downhill. But it did lag a little bit, so it wasn't as exact as I would have liked it to be. I found when I put the stride power meter on my foot for the first time and went out and did a workout, it behaved just like grade adjusted pace, except it responded instantly to changes of going up and going down. If you live somewhere flat, I don't think it's necessary. If you do have slight ups and downs, it feels like running with pace, just it helps you do it a little bit better as you go up and down. So very well said, Coach Stephen. Last question of the main set. I want to hear both of you guys’ answer on this. You both do a ton of running. You both love the marathon. You both love IRONMAN. You both love going long. You put a lot of miles on your feet. I know you both do. So just for you personally, what are some last-minute practical execution tips, that you found in your own training, when it comes to staying in the right zones when you're out doing a workout? Elizabeth?

Elizabeth James: Intentional focus. I'm going to leave it with those two words. Intentional focus. This does not happen by accident. You do get better at gauging how different intensities feel, but it does take intent. So you have to be focused. You have to be willing to look at those metrics and stay within them. And I mean, then good things happen. But yeah, intent. It does take a lot of focus.

Andrew Harley: The one I'll say -- and then I'll leave it over to you, Stephen, to close us down on the main set. My practical tip is when you see what your workout is, think through what is the best environment for doing this workout. That's going to be a little different for everybody. Zone 2 workouts, like we said, you can do a Zone 2 heart rate session almost anywhere, from treadmill to trail to everything in between. Just as long as you're keeping your heart rate in Zone 2, you're golden. I found for myself, I don't like doing Zone 5 and MAV shuttles at night in the dark unless I'm at a track, because there's nothing scarier than ramping up to Zone 5 speed on a cracked, not smooth sidewalk around my neighborhood, and trying to throw down Zone 5 or MAV shuttle pace in the dark where I might break an ankle. I just, I don't feel safe, frankly. So I really think if I can't get to a track, I'm going to try to do those in the middle of the day where I have confidence, “Oh, okay. I can see the road in front of me. I see where my foot is landing as I spin up to Zone 5, Zone 6 pace.” So I try to think of what is my session, and where do I feel most comfortable executing this session with what I have to do? And that's helped me quite a bit because I have had some times where, “Oh, yeah, MAV shuttles. 9:00pm. Yeah, I'll go do that.” And I get out there and I'm like, “I don't feel safe in any zones.” Same thing with the treadmill. I don't feel safe doing Zone 5 and 6 on a treadmill because my treadmill can't get going that fast. I feel like one misstep and my treadmill is going to throw me into the closet. And so I won't do anything higher than Zone 4 on a treadmill. I'll do Zone 3 and Zone 4 on a treadmill all day long. I love doing that on treadmill. So I've kind of learned where I enjoy doing certain sessions. Coach Stephen, what have you learned personally about yourself when it comes to holding zones?

Stephen Horan: I think number one, you got to test, right? If you're not testing, you're not going to get your zones correct, and you're going to find that they're harder. And I'm just going to give a little thing that I learned. I got a new Garmin for Christmas, and there's a track function on the Garmin, and it's very different than the GPS function on the Garmin for distances. So I was lying to myself on my pace because I tested always with my GPS on the track, which is very different than the physical track distance. So I think I learned a lot, just even about myself, just from that. It's like, “Man, I was having a hard time hitting my zones.” The reason why is because my zones were actually too high set because of how I tested and how I ended up doing that. So I do think it's important. So in one word -- I mean, this is brand new learning for me just this year -- it's like, test, right? Make sure you know your zones. Don't assume your zones because that's what -- and as EJ was talking about -- this is important for growth. If you really want to get faster, you need to be running in the right zones, whether it's Zone 2, or whether it's Zone 4 or 5 or 6, right? And that's the only way you're going to do it. So know your zones and test.

[Transition Sound Effect]

Andrew Harley: Onto the Cool Down, where I have a question from one of our triathletes in the audience for our coaches. Keeping it run-focused today, guys, Shannon has written in and said, “I have procured permission for my household to add a treadmill to my pain cave. What do I need to know about buying one? What features are a,” quote, unquote, “’must have’?” Elizabeth, I know you have a treadmill. Personally, I actually like your treadmill better than I like my treadmill. So what would you say here to Shannon?

Elizabeth James: Yeah, I love my treadmill, so I've got a whole list of what she should think about. I first say, hey, congrats on getting the green light to buy a treadmill for the pain cave. That's fantastic. I find it so efficient to just knock out a workout. Couple things to look for are motor power. Some treadmills are pretty weak when it comes to just the motor that they have. So you want to look for something with at least 2.5 to 3, when we're talking about the continuous horsepower, so that it has a smooth, consistent belt movement for you to do. Then running surface. Again, you're going to find a wide range of things that have a tiny little running surface or ones that are bigger. I would say one that is at least 20 inches wide, at least 55 inches long. If you've got a longer stride or you plan to do, maybe, some of those Zone 5, Zone 6 workouts on the belt, you're going to want something that's longer. I personally love having incline capability that goes up to at least 15%. And I love having a downhill ability, as well. Mine goes from -3 up to 15. I love that. I feel like that's a good range. It allows me to do uphill and downhill sessions to help mimic some of the courses that I'll be doing. And then kind of same thing, if you want good incline range, you want good speed range. So there are some treadmills that tap out at 10 miles an hour. And depending on your pace, that might not be enough. So make sure that you're getting yourself a treadmill that can actually move fast enough. Look at the shock absorption. That's going to be important, just for high volume training, reducing impact on the joints. And then, what do you want in terms of the features? Do you want it to fold up? Do you want it to be able to connect with the heart rate monitor? One of the things that I really thought that I wanted was a touchscreen. I no longer want that because I sweat so much on the treadmill. That happened to me yesterday. I was sweating, and I wiped the sweat off, and all of a sudden, treadmill pace went way up and I was, “Oh my gosh. Okay.” So just a couple things to consider there. I realize that was a long answer, but I get really excited talking about treadmills and all the different features that we can use.

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