Limitless: Women in Triathlon

TriDot Podcast Episode 324

Limitless: Women in Triathlon

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. Special show today. For the first time in a long time, we are not going to do our usual warm-up, main set, and cool down. Today I will be joined by Mark Allen and Michellie Jones, both legendary IRONMAN Champions, both incredible coaches, and both are part of a new initiative we have here at TriDot called LIMITLESS: Women in Triathlon. Through the LIMITLESS initiative, TriDot is giving 1,000 women free triathlon training for a full year, to support women who are in triathlon and, hopefully, to help spark more women to try triathlon. Now, throughout the episode you will actually hear myself, Mark, and Michellie all mention this is for 500 women. LIMITLESS went live late last week, and applications came in so fast that our leadership decided to expand the program to 1,000 women. So if you are interested, or want to nudge a female friend towards triathlon, and towards TriDot, go to go.TriDot.com/limitless, or you can just google “TriDot Limitless” and it will come up. And of course, I will put that link in the description of today's show, and you can go there, and learn more, and apply. Now, I talked to Mark and Michellie separately, as they were in very different time zones last week. We will hear from Mark first, because LIMITLESS was actually his idea, and then we'll hear from Michellie, both sharing information about the program and how they will be helping, and the difference they hope it makes for female triathletes. Enough from me, let's get to it.

Announcer: This is the TriDot Podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world class coaching with every conversation. Let's get started with today's warm-up.

Andrew Harley: Alright, excited to be joined today by Mark Allen, fresh home in California off of a triathlon trip to Vietnam and Chile. Right, Mark?

Mark Allen: Two different long-haul trips, both of them amazing, both of them for IRONMAN 70.3 races – which, next year, will become full distance IRONMAN. First full distance race in Vietnam, first full distance race in Chile. And so it's just super exciting that the sport is still expanding, and that there's this real, almost grassroots, excitement in other countries, because they're getting to experience some of this stuff firsthand in their countries, that a lot of us, obviously, have had for decades. Or that they've had to travel to, to experience. A little jet-lagged. It's a long way to Chile. It's even longer way to Vietnam, but so worth the travel.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I just love Mark, being friends with you, following you on social, keeping up to date with where you are in the world. You're just such a great ambassador for the sport of triathlon, and I know you love visiting new places and just checking out the triathlon scene. I would love to do an episode where we just get on the microphone and talk about triathlon around the world. And what is the triathlon vibe, and the triathlon scene, like in Vietnam versus America, versus Mexico, versus South America, versus Asia Pacific, and just get on with yourself and some other of our world traveling friends, and just hear what are the differences, what are the similarities, with triathletes in different places. But that's a conversation for a different day. Today, we're talking about the expansion, and the support, of triathlon into something different from other countries. We're talking about supporting the women in triathlon. And I shared a little bit in the intro of this episode for what LIMITLESS is, but just in your own words, Mark, can you just lay the groundwork of what the LIMITLESS initiative is, and how it's going to support women in triathlon?

Mark Allen: Yeah. LIMITLESS, it's a program where we're providing 500 women with free coaching for one year on TriDot, just to try to -- not to solve every challenge that a woman is facing, if she's thinking about, “Hey, I want to do a triathlon. I want to try it out,” but to at least, maybe, eliminate one of the barriers, the cost of getting guidance. And there's so many great groups out there, who have been working to help women, mentor them, provide community, to give them guidance to come into the sport. And a lot of that work -- it's not stuff that I personally could actually be involved with because it's more hands on, let's say. So, I don't have training groups in any of my coaching, because, like you just said, I travel a lot. But it went back to – actually, the seed of this actually, really started when IRONMAN split up the World Championships, a couple years ago, into the men's race on Saturday, but the women's race on Thursday, in Kona. And we know that the men and the women, when they race separately, there's a different energy to the field, different energy to the race. We've seen that for many years, now, in the 70.3 World Championships. The vibe is so different. But in Kona, we had kind of just seen the conglomerate. And an amazing experience, but when you take blue and red and mix it together, it's purple. And so that's all you see is purple. But when you separate them out, you realize, oh, there's blue and there's red. And maybe, if there was more red, it might change the complexion of everything. And in Kona that year, when they split it up, had Thursday was the women's race, I was there all week. And the first couple days that I was there, there was almost this general timidness among the women. Like, “Did I earn this? Am I...Is this really my space?” And by Wednesday, they owned that space. They own their space in Kona. But it was in such a different vibe, and energy, than when the men are there. The women are actually really kind to the volunteers. They're really thankful to the organizers, supportive--

Andrew Harley: Kind to the volunteers, kind to each other.

Mark Allen: Yeah, they're not necessarily ‘going into battle’ the way that guys look at racing. But anyway, it was such a cool thing. And then fast forward to just looking at women's participation in the sport. Women have been an incredible inspiration for me, and for many others in this sport. I mean, if you look back, we wouldn't be here without Julie Moss in 1982. Her crawl to the finish, and Kathleen McCartney passing her, just in that last few feet. Without that, this sport would not exist as it does today. That was an inspiration for me, and for thousands of others, to get into the sport of triathlon. Looking at -- in 1989, I went down to New Zealand, and I was training with Scott Molina and Aaron Baker in the winter that year. And Aaron's fire and drive, and sort of black-and-white, “This is what I'm doing,” kind of an attitude -- it sort of woke me up. I’m like, “Wow, I need to actually, I need to focus a little bit better.” And through that sort of indirect mentorship from Aaron, that helped me put together training that really brought the fitness out that I felt like I could have. And I ended up winning in Kona that year. Many reasons, but that was a big reason. Watching women since then, like, Chrissy Wellington having this incredible career, and then moving on and really doing great things in the world. Women are clearly inspirational. They're aspirational. And so, I just, I've always been a supporter of women and equality in the sport. People probably don't know a lot of the history of that. At the first ITU Olympic Distance World Championship in 1989, the race organizers, the day before the race, said, “Oh, we're going to pull the prize money out of the women's race and put it in the men's race.” And me, Aaron Baker, and a number of the other top athletes walked into the ITU Congress, International Triathlon Union Congress, barged through the doors and said, “Put the money back or we don't race.”

Andrew Harley: Love it.

Mark Allen: Black and white, period. And this was a huge risk, because if they said we're not putting it back, none of us are going to go win a World Championship because none of us are going to race. They acquiesced, they put the money back in, and that really set the stage for equality of prize money in the women's races. A couple years before that, there was a triathlon in New York City -- it was called the Crystal Light Triathlon. Amazing, kind of a one-time, huge, bash event, where we swam from the Statue of Liberty to Battery Park.

Andrew Harley: Oh wow.

Mark Allen: I biked along the Great West Highway, or whatever it's called, and we did a lap of Central Park. Amazing. Finished at Tavern on the Green. Similar thing happened. The race organizers go, “Oh, we're going to pull most of the money out of the women's purse and put it in in the men's.” And I, along with a couple others, said, “Yeah, you do that and, again, we don't race.” They acquiesce, they put the money back. And if I was in it for a self-serving reason, I would have lost there because I lost thousands of do—“lost” thousands of dollars that they were going to put into the men's race. But you know, that's doing the right thing in my mind, is making sure that, as best as possible, you try and create a equal opportunity for everybody out there, whether you're age grouper or professional. And so anyway. A couple weeks ago, there was a bit of grumbling about the new slot allocation system for the IRONMAN in Hawaii. And I was completely 100% supportive of it when I first heard the idea, where they were going to time-adjust for athletes, and have this performance pool, and you could essentially be a 60-year-old woman and be at the top of the list for the next slot. Great idea. In practice, it didn't work. And so, we put a couple posts up on my Instagram. One was just kind of an open letter to IRONMAN, saying, “Hey, I think you should maybe revisit this, and see if there's a way to make it a little bit more equitable.” And we put a petition up so that people could sign if they agreed with that request to IRONMAN. Like, “Hey, just look at this. That's all we're asking.” We're not saying this was an intentional thing. It was very unintentional. None of us could have foreseen how it was going to play out. Anyway. So they actually listened, and they had been working on sort of modifying it, and in the end they came up with a system, now, that I think is very fair. But it's still based on women's participation compared to men's participation. And so I thought, okay, this is just one step. The real thing, that would be super exciting, is if there's something that I could do to help, again, reduce the number of barriers to getting into the sport. Do something that would hopefully help all of the other groups, and women, and entities that have really been working hard for years to try to engage more women, provide community, provide guidance, give them that support to get into the sport. Not to go to Kona, but just to have this be this incredible lifestyle, which as we all know, is super cool. And the best thing about it is the community that we have. And so I thought, working with TriDot, we came up with this idea of LIMITLESS. Let's just help 500 women get coaching for the year. First 500 who sign up, we're going to give you the coaching. We are going to provide some community. We're going to provide webinars, some guidance words from clear experts in the field of women and endurance sports. And this is not going to solve every thing that might hold a woman back from competing in triathlons. It's a time-consuming sport. The reality is, a lot of women have a lot more responsibilities that they can't just shove off to the side on Saturdays and disappear for six hours, like some of the guys do. And so anyway, and people have asked me, what's the motivation behind this? The motivation is just very simple. I've always been trying to figure out, what are ways that we can bring more people into the sport? What are ways that we can provide a greater experience for people who are in the sport? That's one of the reasons I went to TriDot. I brought all my athletes over there, because in my opinion, it's the best way to get coached. So hopefully, that's what this will do. And hopefully, if companies who are interested in this sport, and who are supportive of entry-level athletes, and getting participation up, especially among the women, hopefully, they'll sort of jump on this, and get involved, and provide support, also. So it's, again, it's just one piece, but hopefully, not only through the women who -- and we've only had this up for a short period, and it's almost completely filled up.

Andrew Harley: Hours. Yeah, hours, at the time you and I are recording this.

Mark Allen: And I don't always have a platform to feel like I can do something that could be effective and positive, but it felt like, right at this point, there were enough, sort of, eyeballs looking at what I'm doing. And Scott Zagarino and I, my business partner, he's a genius with this kind of thing, of getting people to participate and have great experiences. That's what his whole journey in triathlon, and sport, has been. We came up with this idea, and by the graces of TriDot, they said, “Yes, let's do this.” And people said, “Why are you doing this?” They're thinking, where are you going to make the money on this? I get nothing from this. I don't earn one cent from anything that's happening from it. It's just something that I feel strongly about. We might get two more women in the sport, we might get thousands more. But regardless, if I can just facilitate, through this program of LIMITLESS, some more women to get in and have a positive experience, I think that's pretty cool. And I put myself at risk by doing this. I don't think IRONMAN was very happy with me calling out that the slot allocation system didn't seem to be very fair. I've had a number of groups who are like, “Hey, why are you jumping in to this all of a sudden?” But again, the thing that people don't maybe know, is that I'm not just jumping in to help support women in the sport. I have been doing that from the very beginning. I've been in the sport for whatever, 43 years now, and I have a very, 100% track record, of always supporting equality of opportunity for women and trying to do what I can, from my side, when opportunities come up -- and we kind of created this one. And I love what we're calling it, LIMITLESS. It's aspirational. LIMITLESS, it's an opportunity for people to maybe just do something that they didn't think they could, or that they were nervous to try. And for me, that's what LIMITLESS is. LIMITLESS is not about breaking some incredible world record. It's about improving your personal journey within whatever you're doing. And sport has such a way of answering so many questions about life itself. The parallels and the metaphors are—

Andrew Harley: Oh yeah, endless.

Mark Allen: -- endless. You learn about resilience, you learn about breaking your own barriers of what you felt you could do. And sport provides you with that empowerment to really go for something that is maybe a dream for you, even if you don't know if you can do it. And that's, I think, why probably we all got into the sport. Like, “That looks cool, but I don't know if I can do it.” And so, LIMITLESS, 500 women, and as those women go through their journey, hopefully they will also reach out to other groups and communities within their area, that have been doing this and supporting women for a long time with more of the very hands-on things that you can do when you have a community in your town, in your area, that you can train with, and you can communicate with. We're going to provide as much of that as we can from afar. Was that just one question? Good God!

Andrew Harley: That was one question, Mark. And I think you answered four of the five questions I have on my sheet, but you and I will have no problem continuing the talk. I'm confident in that. But man, I still remember -- I've been on staff with Predictive Fitness, the parent company of TriDot, for six years now. I've heard, been on a lot of different calls, I've been a part of a lot of different initiatives and brainstorming of initiatives, and when I first heard this idea, and the eye-popping number of 500 athletes -- 500 athletes are going to get free training for a full year. The only time -- we've had promotions where athletes can have two months free, two weeks free, four months free, just depending. But we've never done anything like this. There was one thing that we did, where one athlete was going to win free training for a year. One athlete, right. And that was a promotion a number of years ago. And so when we all saw this, it was just like, oh my gosh, that's an eye-popping number. And we're a business, we do need to make some money. We can't give free training to everybody. But to something that you said along the way, like, okay, we all see that there is this certain percentage, I think it's somewhere around 27, 26% of triathletes are female, and 74, 75--

Mark Allen: I give them at least 30%, yeah.

Andrew Harley: Okay, yeah, so roughly 30 to 70. Either way, all of us in the sport would love to see that ratio tick up, right, toward female participation. And so really, as a brand, we see this much more as a philanthropic thing, right? We want to be a part of, just like you, at no benefit to ourselves, we want to be a part of solving a problem. Like you said, we can't solve every problem that a female athlete faces and getting into the sport, but what can we solve? We can solve training and coaching, because that's what we do. So yeah, I'm very excited about this. And I remember Mark, when we were all in Kona for that very first all-female race in Kona -- you were there, I was there. I remember while the race was happening, just walking around, and at all the different restaurants along Ali'i Drive, and all the TVs and the hotels nearby -- all eyes on the island were glued to the women's race. And it was awesome. Whereas before, the attention was split. The broadcast bandwidth was split. They're trying to cover what's happening in the men's field, and then jump to the women's field, and back and forth and back and forth. And the whole thing, the whole focus was on the women the entire time. And it was amazing. And what I love about this number, of 500 athletes that are going to be given free training, it's not -- in the grand scheme of things, it's not thousands, it's not tens of thousands. It's not, “Oh man, we're going to get a 100,000 females into the sport because of this initiative,” but it's something that we can do. And that's 500 athletes that are going to be on social media documenting, “I'm becoming a triathlete. Here's my journey.” They're going to be in their communities, sharing with their friends, “This is a new thing that I'm trying.” And when more athletes, male and female, see them in public spaces training for their races, becoming a triathlete, going on that journey, who else might it spark to become a triathlete? Both male and female. It just gives us 500 more examples of, “Oh, she's doing it. Maybe I can do this, too.” Because I still remember, Mark, before I was a triathlete, I was ‘tri-curious’. I was interested in triathlon. I was swimming at the gym, I was running every day after work. I had never touched a bike. But I met a guy who, he wasn't like a die-hard triathlete, but every single year he would do one or two local sprint races. And I didn't know sprint and olympic triathlon existed. I thought, oh, if you're going to do triathlon, you have to become an IRONMAN. And so when I met this guy, and he's telling me, “Oh yeah, you can just do a sprint, it's this many miles.” That gave me the nudge to, “Okay, yeah, he's doing this. I just need to buy a bike, and I can do this, too.” And a couple months later I'm a triathlete, and a couple years later I have a podcast, and a couple years later I'm working for TriDot, talking to you right now. But my point there, without me starting the ramble as well, my point there is the clinching thing that nudged me into becoming a triathlete was meeting somebody local in my community that was a triathlete. And we're empowering 500 women to potentially become that nudge for other people in their communities, as well as giving them a good experience. So I'm excited about this. I know you're excited about this. We're not just giving them free training, and saying, “Go have a good time, hope it works out.” Like you said, yourself and Michellie Jones, who are about to talk to you on the same episode, here in a few minutes, and some of our other Legend coaches, some of our other TriDot staff coaches, are going to be supporting these women in their 12-month journey training with TriDot. I know some of those details are still shoring up. Some of our brand partners are hopping on board to provide some stuff for these women. But what do you know of, right now, in terms of the mentorship that's going to happen, and the community that's going to happen, where Mark Allen will be supporting these ladies, along with some others?

Mark Allen: Yeah, well, one of the things we're doing is we have been reaching out to a lot of groups, that already exist, who do have a lot of experience working, helping build community for the women. And that's a huge component that seems to be a real sort of magnetic piece for women to get into the sport, when they feel like there's a community that they can tap into. It's not necessarily quite as a competitive drive as, let's say, a guy, a man, getting into the sport. So a lot of that is going to be driven by providing community outreach with these other groups that have been in this thing, in this passion, for many years. We have Michellie Jones, we have Mirinda Carfrae, in the TriDot stable. And so the three of us will be doing a lot of online things to just provide support. And especially Rinny and Michellie will be able to give you that real experiential journey, and what it's like to be a woman, why the sport can be so great for you, and what you can get out of it. And to go back to what inspired you, I have -- in the last year, year and a half, every group that I've been speaking with, in the sport, I've said, never underestimate the number of people that you are inspiring. Never underestimate the number of lives that you are impacting, and changing, and making better through what you do. I said, I just kind of did my thing, like I just tried to race well, and I wasn't really thinking of what I did as something for the global community. But I can see now, over the years, that I've had impact. And that impact is experienced by anybody who knows somebody who does a triathlon, who is in this sport. And so you said, it's 500 women who, hopefully, will break down this one challenge to getting involved in the sport, through the coaching, and also with that mentorship. And to just have it in the back of their mind, like, you know, “This is going to be my journey, but maybe it's going to be something really cool that other people are going to see and go, wow, I want to do that, too.” And so hopefully, it will be kind of a seed, or a snowball, that will just bring some real positive energy and growth into the sport, and to the experience of, in this case, specifically, women. But guys out there, I think like I said, so much of my inspiration in this sport came through women who have been in this sport. And I wouldn't be the triathlete I am today had I not met them, been inspired by them. And I think that's a really important thing, because all of the women who are going to be engaged in this, they're going to have a story, and their stories are going to be pretty cool. And as the year goes on, I hope that this podcast actually highlights some of those stories, because that's going to be more gold than anything that I can say to these women.

Andrew Harley: Definitely more than anything I can say. People have heard me enough over the course of our 300-something episodes we have out by now. But Mark, maybe close us with this, and then we're going to bring Michellie on and hear from her a little bit. But why do you believe -- you've been coaching your athletes with TriDot now, for a number of years. Why do you believe TriDot is the best platform for a female athlete to be training?

Mark Allen: It's the best platform, regardless of whether you're a woman or a man. The training plans are designed around your fitness, your race goals, your experience in the sport, your age, your gender, your location, wherever you're training. If it's a hot climate, a cold climate. Things are adjusted based on everything that you have. So it takes just so much of the -- if you're doing stuff on your own, it's kind of a guesswork thing. Putting a swim, and a bike, and a run together is kind of simple if you think about it. You swim, bike, run, swim, bike run, swim, bike, run. But it's complex if you're trying to actually optimize it so that if you do have limited time, if you do have challenges to figuring out how much training can I do, this will optimize -- TriDot optimizes the amount of the benefit from every session that you put in. And so many of the athletes that I had coached for years, when we came over to TriDot, their weekly training volume went way, way down, and they were nervous about it. Like, “I don't know, it doesn't feel like I'm doing enough training.” And they all had better results, and they're like, “Oh, so I can actually train less and get better?”

Andrew Harley: That’s my experience. Yeah.

Mark Allen: And I don't even want to call this something that will help a barrier. I don't like that word, barriers, when you're talking about things that might make it difficult for people to come in. It's just more like the challenges, the reality, like you said. And hopefully, by providing this really optimized training that can get people super fit with even just a small amount of time taken out of their daily life, it will reduce one of the challenges to getting into the sport. You don't have to be a genius, you don't have to be in physiology, you don't have to be an exercise scientist to do it. You just show up, you put in your information, and everything is optimized for you. And then on top of that, like we said, we will be providing community, and a place to communicate with the other women who are on this journey with you. And that's a really important thing. Like, if I look back at my career, yes, I had great wins, I had World Championships, I had all of that glamour and glory stuff. But the thing that I cherish most was the time I had with my training partners and the team that supported me and helped me. And so it really is the community that makes this such a cool journey. And so as we help develop that within the LIMITLESS framework, and as other groups, like I said, who have been at this for many years, embrace it, bring it in, use it to help their athletes get on board, hopefully we will create a little bit of a snowball  that'll get pretty big, I hope. Alright. LIMITLESS.

Andrew Harley: LIMITLESS!

[Transition Sound Effect]

Andrew Harley: Very excited to be on with Coach Michellie Jones from Giddy Up Multisports. And Michellie, we just got done chatting with Mark Allen, and Mark caught us up to speed on what the LIMITLESS initiative is, where TriDot is giving 500 women free training for a year, in support of women currently in triathlon and in hopes of bringing more women into triathlon. And I'm just curious for you, you're very involved with our team. You're very passionate about supporting women athletes in the sport, and women coaches in the sport. What did you first think when you first heard about this initiative?

Michellie Jones: I was like, this is exactly what the sport needs. I'm a huge advocate for ensuring that we have as many women racing and coaching as possible. I know, through my professional career, I only ever had actually one female coach, and that was Paula Newby Fraser. So I think it's really important that---

Andrew Harley: What a coach to have, though.

Michellie Jones: Exactly. Hey, I'm all about, if you're going to get a coach, I'm going to get the very best. And at that point, Paula was exactly what I was all about. She knew me, she'd been there and won in Kona many times. So definitely, that knowledge that she brought to my short-course knowledge really, really excelled me. And it's thanks to her that I actually won the IRONMAN World Championships. But I think it's also -- we just can't talk the talk. We've got to walk the walk.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. Love that.

Michellie Jones: And we want to keep moving the needle. We want to keep making sure we're creating these opportunities for women. And we're making sure that the door is getting kept open, that we keep having this awesome message about how beneficial it is to have more women participating, more women coaching. I think we bring such a unique perspective to racing, and look at who the top, top earners right now, are definitely -- for IRONMAN, someone like Lucy Charles, has definitely got to be at the top of the top. The following that she has surpasses most of the men. I don't think there's anyone that has a stronger profile than her. So it's, again, it's like, it's time. It's about time. And I really applaud what TriDot is trying to do, and I am 110% behind this initiative.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I've been on staff with Predictive Fitness, the company behind TriDot, for just over six years now. And I sit on the marketing team, right, as the media producer. And I've seen and heard a lot of different ideas thrown out. Some that are just pure marketing, like, hey, how can we get more folks using our product, right? That's what a marketing team is for. But there's also a number of initiatives we've done over the years -- not necessarily for that, just more of a, how can we support the sport? How can we help grow the sport? How can we help other brands that are alongside of us in the sport? And when I first saw the number 500 athletes, I was blown away by that. We have never talked about anything on the scale of this. And it really goes to show me just how quickly our CEO and our leadership team approved this and greenlit this. Everybody believes in it, and it's purely just a show of support for those athletes. And Michellie, I'm curious, you've been a woman in the sport for a few decades now. You crushed it during your professional career. You're crushing it now. You are crushing it now. Racing as an age-grouper, you win races every other weekend, it seems like, following you on social. You're crushing it as a coach, coaching your athletes through Giddy Up Multisports. In all of your time in the sport, have you noticed much of a change in how many women are in the sport?

Michellie Jones: Definitely. I've seen a huge evolution of women's participation over the decades and decades, that you said, that I actually have been involved in the sport, and it's sort of the right time, right now. And I can go through the history of -- I was actually on 60 Minutes in Australia -- everyone knows what 60 Minutes is, and Australia has their own version -- ensuring that women had equal participation and opportunity, and that wasn't happening at that time in Australia. And then we've seen the people, like Paula Newby-Fraser, being such an outstanding role model. You've seen Erin Baker in the past, who has really fought for women's rights. And then, as we step closer and closer to where we are now, I totally applauded IRONMAN for doing two separate races for the World Championships. I am still 100%, maybe 110, 120, 150% advocating that I think we're taking a step back, that it's going back to a one race in Kona. I feel like having those two separate races really raised the bar. It really focused on women, and what they can achieve, and the type of audience -- and the racing is just outstanding. We've had such a huge battle of female athletes racing across all the World Championships this year. As a fan of the sport, it's been absolutely fantastic. So as we go into 2026 -- I can't believe we're already saying it's 2026. It's like women are realizing that, yeah, they do have that still imposter syndrome. We saw that when Kona was those two separate years, where they was just females only. We saw that a lot of women didn't feel like they belonged or deserved to be there. But I think we're starting to turn that script around, that women do belong here. That women are wanted here. I think that's the most important thing, and I think that's what I love about this initiative, because we're telling women, we want you to be here. We want you to be successful. We want you to join community. We know that you have differences that need to be addressed. There's a whole list of things, as the first thing I said, that imposter syndrome. Our physiology is very different. We deal with hormonal changes. We deal with life changes, pregnancy, leaving the sport, coming back into the sport. So I think for me, I've sort of lived every chapter of this evolution so far. As I said, as you said, from being a pro, racing the Olympics, guiding at the Paralympics, being at World Championships, and full circle, coaching, racing age-group. I think this LIMITLESS initiative makes it possible for every single female -- excuse me -- every single female is going to get an opportunity, and 500 are going to get a very special opportunity. And I applaud this initiative. And I think it's going to have an impact, because not only those 500 women are going to benefit, but I can tell you, they're going to become role models. And I tell my athletes this all the time, you never know who is looking at you and going, “Wow, if they can do it, maybe I can do it.” So we sort of, like that multiplication effect that, you encourage 500, that's going to encourage thousands and thousands more. And I think this is a step in the right direction. I think it's a positive step for women in our sport. And I'm super excited.

Andrew Harley: I grew up with a sister and some female cousins that I'm very close with, some female friends that I was very close with growing up. I was good friends with a lot of my sister's friends and family friends. So I had a lot of female friends, female peers, that I grew up with that played a variety of sports and excelled in a variety of sports. And so I, as a male, I've just always felt like, well of course, those female athletes belong at the race alongside of me. Of course, those female pros that we're talking about are just as impressive, if not more impressive, oftentimes, than their male counterparts. I never would have guessed that it was an issue, or that it was a talking point, that some female athletes might not feel like they belong in the sport as much, or as easily, as a male does. And you coach male and female athletes, right? And so you're having conversations with both genders about, “How is your training going? How are you feeling about your place in the sport? What's your identity as a triathlete? What are your goals in the sport? How does your life fit alongside of this sport?” Do you find those conversations, and those truths, and just the identity as a triathlete, to be very different between your male athletes and your female athletes?

Michellie Jones: Definitely the goal's the same, right, as a coach. The goal, as a coach, for me, is to get my athletes to see their potential beyond what they thought their potential can ever be. And so that message is strong. It doesn't matter if you're a male or a female. The message differs because you have differences. Growing up, it's like -- when I was growing up, it's like, the message in my age, “Oh, get a husband, get married.” And I was like, “No, I want to do what I want to do. I'm very independent.” And then females are then expected to not do sport, because they've got to raise the family. And that role is changing. And women are seeing that they can be great mothers but still give something back to themselves. So that's a big difference right there, is making female athletes who run the dynamics of the family, they're the ones that are giving up a lot. It's okay. My message is, it's okay to look after yourself a little bit, because you're going to be much happier, you're going to be a much better parent, and you're going to be more successful in achieving the goals that you need to achieve for yourself. We have so many great mothers out there who do a fantastic job. And mothers are the best multitaskers in the world, and it's just amazing what happens. And, yeah, it's always nice to have support. And the support goes both ways, right? Because male athletes also need that family support. So it's important that you give back, both sides. So that's always a conversation that I have. Are you making sure your family dynamics is on board with what you're doing? That's a complication to every single athlete. And then, you look at where different athletes are in different phases. And definitely there are similarities, for sure, between male athletes and female athletes. But as I said, the biggest stumbling block is getting those female athletes to really believe that they can do something, and they can do something well beyond what they've ever dreamed of. Where males typically will be, “Oh, I've got this.” I always like what Mark Allen always says -- women will pretty much do everything you tell them to do. Where the guys, on the other hand, sometimes ego gets in the way, testosterone might get in the way a little bit. But female athletes are really good at, you put it down, they're going to accomplish it. So sometimes you've got to hold them back a little bit and go, okay, that's good. But it's okay, that sometimes you need to fail a little bit in order to succeed. And I mean, that message is strong across both genders. But yeah, I think it's more that women are juggling so many roles, and there's so many expectations that add so many extra layers into training. And we've talked about the family, the caregiving responsibilities, that life-work balance, which is so different. Then you've got, across the span of a female, you've got those hormonal considerations, and they definitely change your philosophy. And as a coach, you've got to understand and appreciate that these differences, these hormonal considerations, are hugely impactful on your athletes mental and physical status. And then of course, women really struggle with body image expectations. And that's one of the things that I love about triathlon is it isn't really defined by one body type. There's so many different body types. And I think that's really so great at our sport, because you can have basically a swimmer's body, you can have a runner's body, and you can have any body, and you're accepted in our sport. And I applaud our sport for being like that. I think there's so many things that I love about triathlon. It doesn't matter if you're a male or female, you start the same race as everyone else. Doesn't matter if you're a professional or you're an age-grouper. We're doing the same swim, the same bike, and the same run distance, which is fantastic. And then also, we got to think about the safety concerns as a female athlete. It's like, I have some horrific stories of when I was training in Australia, the things that people would say to you as they were driving. One time I was running past a cricket pitch, and I was afraid to run back, just from the verbal harassment I was getting. And male athletes typically don't get that type of harassment.

Andrew Harley: Nope, never.

Michellie Jones: Yeah. And I think it's one of those things -- sometimes nutrition needs can be slightly different. And then it's also that emotional weight that females tend to carry around, that, “I've got to look after everyone else--” like I said, “--before I look after myself.” But I believe that triathlon changes you in so many positive ways. It's going to make you more self-confident. It's going to empower you. You make these awesome friendships, you have this awesome bonding experience, and you can share your own personal experiences. I think women are really supportive in that way. They will share what they're feeling and try to help you, and they want you to succeed. And I think that's very special. So, definitely, as a female coach, I've learned that female athletes really thrive when we honor the whole picture, not just for workouts, if that makes sense.

Andrew Harley: I absolutely love that. And that's part of where I think TriDot training is so special. Because TriDot is going to train me, as a 37-year-old male, differently as it will you, as a female athlete. And it does customize the training to who you are, what your biology is, what your physical needs are, the training stress you can take on. So aside from this being--

Michellie Jones: Your genetics. Don’t forget to mention your genetics.

Andrew Harley: Your genetics, yeah. Literally your genetics. So aside from this being an offer of free training for 500 women -- if we take the fact that the price, which the price is amazing, off the table -- why do you as a coach, and you coach your athletes with TriDot, why do you believe TriDot is the best way for a female triathlete to train for triathlon?

Michellie Jones: Why? I was just telling somebody this the other day. It's so unique, it's so way ahead of the curve. And it adapts in a way that, physically, a human cannot be able to change it. I think that's one thing that I love about every time you upload a workout, it instantly change it. And I think also, because it's so data driven, the female physiology is not an afterthought, if that makes sense. It's really part of the whole programming, and how the AI works, and how it responds to who you are, how old you are. You've got your score based on comparing yourself to somebody who's younger than you. You have that score that you get, you have a score for every workout that you get. So it's very, very motivating. But it's also very powerful for women. As I said, it's not volume driven, which I really like. And as I said, it's very data driven. So every time you're putting data in, it's going to respond very, very quickly. And I think that's important, because women only have so much time. So it's balancing the time commitment, because it's not a program that's going to get you to do junk mileage, it's just not necessarily to do that. And I've always had that philosophy. So in terms of balancing your career, your families, the hormonal shifts, the training is so much more of achievable in somebody who's in that time crunch position. So it's going to optimize every single session you do, and it's not going to give you any extra time because you don't need that. And you don't have to use any extra energy because you're not doing any junk stuff. You're doing exactly what you need to do in a much more efficient, backed by science -- and I think that's one of the things I love about it. There's no junk, there's no trash. It's, this is what you need to do. Don't waste your time thinking you need to do huge amounts of mileage. There's a purpose for every session. And I live by that motto every day. I'm like, if the session doesn't have purpose, then I'm not going to do it myself. And I like, also, that it's going to adjust to the life stresses, too. Because our lives are never linear, that's for sure. And so TriDot will adapt based on the readiness, your fatigue, your sleep, your training load. And it's also taking into account the races. As soon as you upload all your races into the system, it's now driving all that programming towards making sure you are successful at you’re A-race, or your B-race, or your C-race. And that's one thing that I love about it, too. It's teaching you that you have to pick and choose what your A-race is, what you're willing to train through for a race. Some people put a lot of racing together, and TriDot's going to go -- through their RaceX, is going to go, “No, this is not ideal.” So it's really teaching you also to coach yourself. And I'm a big believer that coaches should be teaching you. One of the goals is to be able to coach yourself. Let’s see, what else do I love about it? I mean, just the confidence that you get -- that you see that you're, if you're scoring highly on every workout, you know it's giving you confidence because you know you've done exactly as it's prescribed.

Andrew Harley: Great point.

Michellie Jones: And the success stories -- even when I race, I need a coach. I use the TriDot platform for my coaching, as well. And I'll often go, “Okay, this is what I would give myself. Let me see what TriDot is going to give me.” And it's, 9 times out of 10, we're very similar, because I've always been ‘fast before long’, and I've always been into ‘less is better’.

Andrew Harley: Yeah.

Michellie Jones: So yeah, it's a fun little test to see, okay, what would I prescribe myself? What would TriDot prescribe me? And it's great, because sometimes then I'll go, okay, it's saying this, I'm saying this. Sometimes I'll do a middle ground, as well, because I also have a lot of experience. But I'm biased, and I am so close to myself, sometimes I'm not good. I need somebody else looking in from the outside. And that is super, super important, that it doesn't matter who you are, a good coach can't always coach themselves. You definitely need somebody who's a step away and can look in from the outside.

Andrew Harley: There are a number of TriDot coaches that also have a TriDot coach, for that very reason. It's like, they know everything, right. They know enough to be an excellent coach in their own right but recognize exactly what you're saying. Like, “I'm too close to myself. I need a third party to kind of help me perfect this and get it right.”

Michellie Jones: No, yeah, and it's not a failure on anyone's part. It's just, it's smart. I think if you don't have somebody helping you out and looking in, I don't think you're being a great coach to yourself, and I think you're limiting your ability to get the best out of yourself. Not to say that it can't be done, but I definitely think, it definitely helps for me to bounce ideas off TriDot, basically.

Andrew Harley: Yeah.

Michellie Jones: So that I'm staying true the goals that I've set for myself, as well. And I love the community support, too. I think that's what these 500 women are really going to love, that community support, the coaching support that you're also going to get outside of that. And I think that's what's so cool that TriDot is really doing. It's not just a platform. It's a community. And I think triathlon is so community-based. And I go to a race and I call it my family, because I'll see people that I haven't seen for years, but it's like we never really left. It's like one of those things where, “Hey, great to see you.” It's like, “When was the last time I saw you?” And it could be 10 years, it could be yesterday. It's definitely, I love -- and it's social, right. A lot of athletes out there, it's a huge part of their social life. I think, particularly as we mature as athletes -- notice I didn't say get older, we mature as athletes. I see a lot of the athletes I coach, it's their social outlet. It's like, I'll go riding with my friends. I'll go swimming with my friends. Hey, let's pick a race to go and do as a group. So it becomes very much part of your social activities.

Andrew Harley: So you will definitely be involved in supporting the 500 women that join the LIMITLESS initiative. Mark was just on, sharing some details on what's going to be happening between yourself and Mark. You guys are going to be part of a group of coaches interfacing with these ladies. What impact do you personally hope to have on the athletes that join LIMITLESS?

Michellie Jones: I mean, just get them excited about the sport, get them excited about the longevity that you can have in the sport. I think I represent that pretty well, that you can continue to find passion, you can continue to push yourself. And I just want to share so many stories that I have. I often tell people if it hasn't happened to me, it's probably never going to happen, because there's a lot of things that I have definitely experienced over my career. I just want to, as I said, I want to increase women's participation. I want to keep driving our numbers up. I want to ensure that we have equality across every single possibility in endurance sports. And I want to see what these 500 women are capable of. Just like my athletes that I coach, I want them to be open and upfront of what they're trying to achieve. And then I'm going to go, hey, let's up the ante just a little bit, because I know that you're selling yourself a little bit short. And I want to make sure that we motivate you. We share the highs and the lows, because it's not always about the highs, and get to that race. And my famous words of wisdom is be happy with the race you had rather than the race you wish you had. That journey to the start line is going to be so special. And even if you've done many start lines, I think this is going to build such a great community.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, I actually, just earlier this week, saw a longtime TriDot athlete, shout out to TriDot athlete Kay Grant. She had a race over the weekend that didn't quite go the way she wanted. She posted a race report, and some pictures of the Facebook group, and quoted you saying, “I'm going to quote Michellie Jones, ‘I'm happy with the race I had, not the race I wish I had.’ ” One of my favorite quotes from you. Michellie, we're almost at the end of our hour, with Mark and then yourself, talking about this initiative. And so just maybe close us out with this, and just a minute or so. If there is a female athlete listening today that maybe is new to the sport, or thinking about getting involved in the sport, what would be your words of encouragement to them to join this, to jump on board with this, but more importantly, to maybe go from the shallow waters of interest in triathlon into the deep end of interest in triathlon? What would your appeal be?

Michellie Jones: Well, one thing that I always lead my athletes is actions before emotions. So make it actionable. Don't just think about it. Don't be sitting on the sidelines thinking, “I'm not sure I can do this. I'm not sure I have the time commitment.” I want you to be excited about it. I want you to be actionable. I want you to go, “You know what? I belong here. I've been thinking about this,” or maybe, “I haven't even thought about it ever before.” We want you here. We want to support you on that mission to get to a triathlon. Or maybe it's just training. Maybe it's a triathlon. Maybe it's finishing your first ever IRONMAN. Whatever it is, don't be afraid to take the first step. I see so many people out there, around the world, who never take that first step. So I encourage you to sign up, get on board. And, even if, maybe you're outside of those lucky 500, don't give up on the possibility that you can do something that will change your life forever.

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