Longevity in Triathlon: How to Have a Good Time for a Long Time

TriDot Podcast Episode 269

Longevity in Triathlon: How to Have a Good Time for a Long Time

Announcer: This is the TriDot podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire and entertain. We'll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let's improve together.

Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. This is a very valuable episode that I've been wanting to do for a long time and gosh golly, do I have the perfect coaches for it. We are talking about longevity in the sport of triathlon. Some folks enter the sport and do a couple races and bow out. Do it for a couple years and bow out. Some folks stay in it for the long haul. Whatever your ambitions, goals, desires are you know you do you enjoy your triathlon journey. But for our athletes in the TriDot Podcast audience who are looking to maximize their triathlon journey, you want to be in this thing for as long as you can be in this thing. I've got two coaches talking to us about how to enjoy a nice long triathlon experience. So our first coach joining us for this conversation is Kurt Madden. Kurt is a pioneer of the sport and a double digit Kona finisher. He has three top 10 finishes at the IRONMAN World Championships. He is a four time North American age group champion and is a four time number one world ranked age group Iron Man All World athlete. Kurt is also a two time Ultraman World Champion. He has a Master's degree in Exercise Physiology and is the head of Coach development for TriDot. Mr. Kurt Madden, welcome back to the show Andrew.

Kurt Madden: Thank you so much. I have waited an extremely long time to join you and Coach Jenn on this podcast.

Andrew Harley: Yep, as Kurt alluded to, our second coach on this podcast in this conversation with us is Jenn Reinhart. Jenn is a multi sport legend in the Austin, Texas area. She has been coaching athletes for over 40 years and is an eight time Kona finisher. She's a USAT Level 2 Triathlon coach and an IRONMAN Youth Certified coach. She has a collegiate swim background racing for Purdue University back in the day and so she works very closely with the triathletes at Austin Aquatics Training center in Austin, Texas. Coach Jenn, welcome back to the podcast.

Jenn Reinhart: Good morning guys. I am so honored to be here with you Andrew and especially Coach Kurt and looking forward to our discussion.

Andrew Harley: Well I am Andrew, the average triathlete, voice of the people and captain of the middle of the pack. As always, we'll roll through our warmup questions, settle in for our main set conversation about longevity in the sport of triathlon and then wind things down with our coach cool down tip of the week, lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.

Warm Up Question

Announcer: Time to warm up. Let's get moving.

Andrew Harley: In triathlon, almost every time you race, you put down a new swim split, bike split and run split. Every so often, the swim is canceled, but that's a different story for a different podcast. Some races, all three of those splits come together and we feel pretty good about the whole shebang. Other times we walk away with a certain split or two that we really like. But maybe we didn't nail all three. Regardless, my question today as our warm up question is what individual swim, bike or run split from one of your races are you the most proud of? And Coach Jenn, Coach Kurt, you guys have raced a whole, whole bunch, so I'm excited to see which one you pick. Coach Jenn Andrew, that's such a hard.

Jenn Reinhart: Question because do I pick the one that I had the fastest split or do I pick the one where, you know, it was really challenging but I finished it? I'm going to go with kind of maybe one of my faster splits because I hope to repeat it here in about a week. And that's my iron man, Cozumel swimming. Some years there can be a really good current that pushes you. Some years it's kind of in between. I think I hit one of those in between years and came out in 55 flat. So if I could go down and a week from Sunday hit another 55 flat swim, I'd be ecstatic.

Andrew Harley: It's so tricky though. Like, it's like, you know, you, that's your pr, right? If that's a pr, that's a pr. And then it's like, but like, you know, the, the currents play such a factor in. But yeah, beautiful water down there in Cozumel. Coach Kurt, from all the racing you've done, what individual split, what's your favorite? Are you the most proud of whatever you want to share.

Kurt Madden: Like Jenn said, this one was tough. It was like, do I, do I share the one that was the most challenging or my best? And it's kind of maybe a combo. I go way back in time. This was 1985 at the Ultraman World Championship. We're on the Big island. So to create some context for our listeners, the first day is a 6.2 mile swim. Then you get on a bike and you bike all the way to the other side of the Big island, over to volcano and that's 90 miles on. On day two, you bike from a volcano all the way around Hilo, up through Waimea, all the way over the Kohala Mountain to a place called Hawi, and that is 175 miles. Then you wake up on day three and say, I am fired up because not only do I get to see the Queen K, I get to run on the Queen k for only 52.4 miles all the way back to Kona. No, thank you. I. For whatever reason, the lava fields and the wind were beyond good to me that day. I got to that first marathon in 3:19.

Andrew Harley: Wow.

Kurt Madden: That is. No, that's. That's. We could document that. The tailwind was just blowing, and it's just like anything when you have tailwind, you ride it as long as you can until it's like, okay, there's no more wind. I actually went all the way, I think, to mile 40. I walked for like two minutes and continued to run. So my total time on that day, it was 6 hours and 41 minutes. And that will never happen again. But anytime I'm out there during the IRONMAN World Championship and I get a little bit testy about the distance or the wind, I put it in context to say, no, I've done this four times on that highway. So that was just a memorable day that I will take probably to my grave.

Andrew Harley: Oh, sure. And, yeah, super happy with that for you. I would love a 3:19 standalone marathon. Nonetheless, in the context of what you were doing there in Ultraman, Jenn, has Ultraman ever appealed to you? Have you ever thought about tackling those kind of distances?

Jenn Reinhart: I was quite intrigued about them about 10 years ago, and when I discussed it with my husband, he said, you know, that might just be grounds for divorce. So I backed back down and stuck with just the IRONMAN distance.

Andrew Harley: All right, fair enough. Fair enough. It's all too long for me. It's all too far for me. But so my answer here, I'm most proud of my run split from Clash Daytona 2021. We had loads of TriDotters in Daytona, Florida in December of that year, doing all sorts of races with the Clash family of races. And I ran off the bike a 1:38 was my run split for that half marathon. I'm certainly capable of that with fresh legs, and I just hadn't. I'm not a super strong cyclist. I'm usually on the bike for about three hours. I'm not a super strong swimmer, so I'm usually in the water for at half Marathon or a half IRONMAN for, you know, 40 something minutes. And so I, I usually just don't have the legs I would like to have by the time I hit the run course. And on that day in Florida, we had great weather. It's a flat and fast course. I, I ripped through the swim faster than usual. I ripped through the bike faster than usual. And gosh, golly, wouldn't you know it, because of that, I just had more juice on the run. And I set off at a fairly ambitious pace. I was feeling pretty strong. I was like, well, let's just see how long I can hold this pace. And I kind of held it all the way around the track for 13.1 miles. Did have, did have a porta potty stop in there. So, you know, in terms of pure pace, you know, I was, you know, going a little faster. And also that was the year I was doing that race and try to coach John Mayfield was out there. And I just so happened to catch him coming around turns three and four on Daytona, Daytona Motor Speedway. And I slowed down. I'm such a nice guy, I slowed down. John's such a good friend. And we ran the last, probably 3/4 of a mile together. So had my buddy John not been out there on the track and had I not slowed down, that might have been an even faster run split. But we're gonna throw this question out to the TriDot audience. I'll put this question on the “I Am TriDot” Facebook group. We're also gonna pose this question in the TriDot community hub. So find wherever you interact with TriDot on social media, find this question and brag about yourself. Let us know from all your racing. What individual race, split swim, biker run are you the most proud of?

Main Set: Longevity in Triathlon

Announcer: On to the main set, going in 3, 2, 1.

Andrew Harley: Longevity in triathlon. If you're in this sport right now, sure, you might know, okay, I want to go tick off an IRONMAN and then I'm going to move on to a new hobby. That's all well and good, but I think a lot of us, man, we really want to, we want to milk this thing. If you love triathlon enough to listen to a triathlon podcast, you probably are hoping to be a triathlete for a good long time. And so I have assembled the dream team for this topic. These are the first two coaches I reached out to. They both agreed to come on the podcast and share their wisdom here because Kurt Mattingen Reinhart have done this for a long time, both as athletes, both as coaches, and they've helped athletes extend their careers. They've continued to extend their own careers. And so put on your learning hats and let's tap into what they know to see how can we stay in this sport for as long as possible. And curtain. Jenn I just want to start by just kind of hearing from you guys on what your personal triathlon journey has been like. When did you get started and how has your relationship with triathlon progressed from then until now?

Jenn Reinhart: Well, it's been a long time. I start my first triathlon was in 1984. I lived in Wilmington, North Carolina, and out of college I kept swimming. I did master swim meets. I was still. I considered myself a swimmer. I tried to run, jog some because it was a good tool. Swimmers can kind of get a little beefy when they're not competing and to try to maintain weight. And, um, when I moved to Wilmington, I met up with a bunch of roadies that rode bikes and I started riding, I bought a new bike, I started riding with them and then everybody started going, oh, there's this triathlon with the Y coming up in September. Are you gonna do it? And it's like triathlon, it's like. So I did it. It was, it was a Bud Light series, but it was a weird distance. We did the kind of the same swim as the 70.3 does there across the Intercoastal Waterway. And then it was a 42 mile bike and like an 11 mile run. And my feet hurt so bad on the run, but afterwards I was drinking Bud Light and I forgot that and I got home and I took off my shoes because I didn't have bike shoes back then. I just had toe clips and I rode my running shoes, took them off.

Andrew Harley: Full of blood to be in toe clips.

Jenn Reinhart: I had sliced my feet on the oyster beds coming out. So I'm really happy when I went back and did 70.3 North Carolina, that they had those ladders to climb out. So Wilmington, North Carolina, 1984, a little over 40 years ago, was my first and I just, I fell in love with it. I. Because, you know, I. Being a strong swimmer, I always felt really good about going into the race because I'd be, I'd be out front and then I had to learn and run to keep. You know, it's like I count how many people could catch me on each of those and I'd work to get better because I've always been a pretty competitive nature. And so that just kind of fed into that. And then, you know, until now it's, you know, there have been periods where I didn't get to train or race much. You know, having three kids kind of slowed things way down in the 90s. But that's also the time where I started to coach more and get more women into the sport. I grew up when women, when Title IX passed when I was in high school. So women's sports started to become a thing, and women that are just a year or two older than me, they didn't have that experience and they never thought of themselves as athletes. So it was really very rewarding to get some of those women into the sport of triathlon through the Danskin series way back. And, you know, as my progression in triathlon led and I became more and more endurance focused, I just kept, you know, my community grew. I never lost those women that only did sprints and may still only do sprints, but I kept gaining more, more exposure and more friends that were athletes, that we all motivated each other and we just kept trying new things now.

Andrew Harley: Very, very cool. And it's, it's great hearing you mention that just over the decades, you know, that there were periods where you, you couldn't train a race to the extent that you either wanted to or were used to doing and kind of, you know, being super involved in the sport and then taking, you know, a step back for a season or two. And we're definitely gonna, ask you some more questions about that through the main set here today. But Coach Kurt, same question over to you, just your, you, you've been in this sport from arguably year one, two or three, when triathlon became a thing, and had a lot of good success right away and are still here racing a couple times a year. What's your journey been like, my friend?

Kurt Madden: Yeah, it's like Jenn said, it seems like a long time ago. And then some parts of me, it seems like yesterday, it just kind of depends. But kind of the shortened version is that in college I was living at the beach. It was like 1978, 1979. I was working on my master's degree in physiology and I heard about this competition. It was a swim run, swimming, and these guys look super fit and they were lifeguards. So when you're that young, you're figuring, what the heck do I need to train? Let's just pay the entry fee and see what happens. So I paid the $10 entry fee and I showed up and it was a half mile swim, a five and a half mile run down the beach, and then half mile swim. I said, hey, I think I can do that. And somehow, some way, I was 30th, and I'm like, whoa, what if I actually trained? What a concept. You know, here I'm graduate school. I should understand training principles. So the next year, I trained a little bit more, and then I was third. And then light went off on my head. And then the person who actually, you know, oversaw the event was Tom Warren. And Tom had won the IRONMAN when it was on Oahu in 1979. So he brings out Sports Illustrated, not the swimsuit issue, but he was on the COVID And it shows him. It shows him. And I'm like, oh, my gosh, my eyes got real big. And he goes, listen, I know you. You can swim, you can run. Just go get a bike and you'll fill that void and you'll be fine. So I literally run home, tell my wife Tom Warren just said I should go to Hawaii. What do you think? She's like, well, let's do it. So I went out and bought this bike.

Andrew Harley: It's Hawaii. Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Yeah. It's like, you know, what the heck? And at that time, that was the only race. So you didn't have, like, we have today. I mean, that was kind of it. So I bought this Windsor bike that must have weighed at least 50 pounds. And, Jenn, it did not have to eclipse. So I just started riding, and I was just putting things together. Swim, bike, run. Swim, bike, run. Before I knew it, I'm going over to Oahu. Big storm that day. And they moved the swim over to Ala Moana harbor before the briefing. I'll never forget it. It was simple. There were 99 people there. Dave Scott was there his first race. We had Jim Lampley. We had Diana Nyad. They were filming the whole thing. They said, hey, guys, have a great race. Your crew's gonna follow you. And all you gotta do today is remember the one rule. No cheating. Wow. That was it. And everyone got it. And your crew just followed you along. So I had a great swim. Like Jenn on the bike, I kind of held my own. But then all of a sudden, I flatted at mile 110 in traffic. Didn't have my crew. I rode it, you know, on the rim the last two miles and threw the bike down. I started running. They gave us a map, and they said, follow the map. Well, can you imagine running in Honolulu with a map? And you're trying to understand the streets, and they're one way. And there was a Hawaiian on the corner. I think he was smoking something. It was Just long. And there was smoke coming out. And he said, brah, you go that, you go that way. And I said, cool. And I just started going before night. I'm moving up on the run, and then I see Tom Warren. I'm like that moral dilemma. Yeah, mahalo. Moral dilemma. Do I sit back and wait like you, Andrew with John? Do I sit back and wait and let him beat me? Or should I just say, hey, I'll worry about that at the finish line. So I was feeling good, and my wife, Queen K, is yelling at me, hey, come on, it's go time. And I'm like, yes, ma'am. So anyway, I was seventh. And when I crossed that finish line, I honestly felt that was it. I checked a big box. This will never happen again. And then all of a sudden, this energy just starts creating this infectious thing about this is really cool. It goes on tv. Before I know it, boom, this event is moving over to the Big Island. I'm out on a few bike rides in San Diego. This guy shows up named Mark. What was his last name? Mark Allen. And you're hanging out with these. Yeah, Big Wheels. And so we did that bike ride, and Mark was so funny. He's like, so, do you think I'm good enough? I said, mark, I think you really are. You're going to be just fine. And before I know it, a sponsorship opportunity came up with Nike and then Specialized, and we got monthly stipends. And there was a little bit of money at the pro level, not much, but I rode that wave for about five years. And knowing that we were going to have kids and I had to settle down, and I went into education, took a sabbatical for about 15, 20 years. And then I got into trail running, and I did the Leadville 100 with the Tahara Mara Indians. That's a whole different podcast. And then the Hard rock 33,000 vertical feet. But in 2013, I knew in my DNA I wanted to get back to it. So I started swimming, biking and running again while I lived in a ski resort, and then connected with TriDot in 2016 and then started racing a lot more, started coaching a lot more. And really, it has really taught me, I think the lesson about this sport is this relationship. It's just taught me so much about life, is that we learn how to pivot, we learn how to set goals, we learn how to continue to commit not to quit. You know, we look at health and wellness. We look at relationships. That also teaches you great lessons about being humble and being vulnerable. But you know what? I'm so grateful because as Jenn and I can appreciate that every day is a gift and every day is an opportunity.

Andrew Harley: Now, Kurt, you just celebrated IRONMAN finish, number 50, right? Is that the correct stat. And your 50th IRONMAN finish happened to be in Kona, the IRONMAN world championships in Hawaii, where it all started for you. And just how special was that event for you? How did your, you know, we haven't done a Kona debrief show. We don't, you know, stop and do that every single year. But I would just love to hear how special was that race for you this year.

Kurt Madden: Yeah, I think it was really beyond special because if I go back to that first race when I was on Oahu, I would never look at my crystal ball to say, 44 years from now, you're going to be doing number 50. That was like, I did that and that's cool. And I'm going to walk away. Well, I think it taught me about this is your element. This is your why you need to be here for a long time. And I think to go back to Kona just a couple weeks ago, I was humbled, amazed, again, just very gracious to show up with just not myself, but with six athletes. And two of those people were, you know, 80 years old. I had someone on a legacy program. I had team ager who was a dad with a son. I had a few other people, and it was just really, really incredible. And as I lined up for that race, I was just so grateful to say, hey, I'm going to get on the starting line again. And it just felt so natural. And Andrew, you've been there, so you know what I'm talking about. It's this ohana thing. It's like, this is where I should be right now. And then all of a sudden, boom, we take off on the swim. I'm going off the front, and five minutes into it, bam, I got t boned by a jellyfish. And then boom, on my arm there was another one. And boom, there was another one. And it was such a numbing experience that I literally.

Andrew Harley: Literally. Yeah.

Kurt Madden: Yeah. This is going to be a very unique day. But hopped out of the swim, got on the bike. The winds weren't too bad, the run. And I can tell you what I would share with our listeners. If you've ever been burned before by an iron, you know how that feels. And because I think the reaction I was having that day, it felt like I had an iron on my forehead for 13 hours, on my forearms for 13 hours, that anything that was wet would go on there, I would just cringe. And I have an Andrew, I cussed a couple times. But you know what, what was good about it is that I didn't ring the bell. I said, I will somehow find a way to get to this finish line. And then being out there at mile 16, John Rankin, one of my athletes who is a prostate cancer survivor, he runs like a 314 marathon. He was having a rough day, he had a hip injury. He says, coach, I'm going to run with you. I said, john, you're like a Tesla. He goes, oh, no, we are going to do this. And it's amazing, those last 10 miles of us just hanging out together. And then we saw Michele Jones at mile 24. And with her all Australian accents, she's telling me to giddy up. And I'm trying to tell her very nicely, there's not a lot of giddy up today in this horse, Michaela, but we're going to get there. But to come across that finish line for John, who we've worked together for what, three years now for him, he said it was a life changing experience. For me to be there, it was just incredible. But the thing I learned about that is when you're suffering together, how it just bonds you. It's like John and I are now connected for the rest of our lives. So, yeah, it was an epic day and it was something that it teaches you humility, it teaches you a lot about yourself. But you know what? I'm already pumped up to say I think the 50 year anniversary, I can still do the math. The 50 year anniversary in our sport is in 2028. And someone reached out to me to say, would you coach me for that event? And I'm thinking, coach you? What about me? I need some help on this one. So I'm already looking out four years to say if I could get to the starting line with Jenn Reinhart. Oh, my goodness. And all of our tri daughters. See that Jenn and I can counsel you, I can talk to your husband. I'll influence him. So that's what.

Jenn Reinhart: You're hurting me, Coach Kurt, you're hurting me. I hadn't thought that far ahead, but that would be amazing.

Andrew Harley: I mean, Jenn has to do it now. I can just, I can tell already the wheels are spinning. But I mean, Kurt, I mean, just what a special day for you. And just goes to show you, it doesn't matter how many times you toe the line at the start line, you don't know what's going to happen out there. Right. Whatever happens out there, you got to find a way through it to get to that finish line. I'm curious to hear from both of you because it's, you know, I wanted to lead with that just to give our listeners some context for what your journeys have been like. Right as we start about to talk, talk about how we can remain in this sport for a long time. And just on a personal level, you know, we'll talk about some different things that you, that you share with your athletes. But on a personal level, what has kept you in the sport this long? What has helped you remain on this journey this deep into your triathlon career?

Jenn Reinhart: A lot of it has been the people. And those people change from year to year. But there is a core group of people and some live in Texas, some live in New York that I stay in contact with just because we met at an IRONMAN race, usually on a run course, helping each other get to the finish line. There's just that sense of community. I think, you know what's going to maybe get me to that 50th anniversary with coach Kurt is being involved with TriDot. These last since, for me, since 2018 and especially these last this last year and a half with the commitment to helping coaches excel and you know, your podcast, our CMG groups where we all get together and kind of mastermind and help each other problem solve has really been a big personal growth and it's made me see that, you know, I can continue to be in this sport. I might not always be at the level that I was back in my 40s and 50s, but, and I may not always do IRONMAN distance races, but there's a place for me somewhere and there's a place for me to coach and provide quality training through TriDot. It's just the last couple of years have just really reinforced that for me. And for me, triathlon is a lifestyle. I mean, it's just part of what I do. You know, when I had a full time job, when I had three kids, I was still trying to fit in my swim, my bike and my run because that's what gave me a little bit of me time and let me, you know, process the rest of life.

Andrew Harley: Really cool to hear how that's kept you grounded into the sport, connected into the sport. And at TriDot, we're thrilled to have you be a part of, of just the coaches pouring into our athletes, pouring into the next generation of coaches. It's, it's always a pleasure to, to just tap into your knowledge and your experience and, and Kurt over to you. I mean, just what, you know, it's, it's. I didn't know. Kurt, in your backstory, you also had a season where you kind of, you know, stepped back and then kind of came back to the sport. What was it that reconnected you and kept you engaged and kept you wanting to stay in the sport for as long as you have?

Kurt Madden: As I've thought about this question, I think I've learned through my education and life, it is the necessity and the understanding to move. When I look at that series about blue zones and live to be 100, I think in the perfect world, we're going to create another one. It's going to be with TriDot, with Jenn and I and a few others that we know that. And I think too, it's just living in such a way that you're active, you're eating right, you're with great community, you always have something to look forward to. And, and many times people have shared that our sport is the fountain of youth. I had an athlete share with me the other day on a one on one that he just, he's almost 60, but he went walking with a few friends that were just 60 and he said, Coach, they had trouble walking two miles. And I'm thinking, hey, Jenn does that just for a warm up. I mean, she's not even into her main set yet. She's already done that. So yeah, that was kind of intriguing. And I think too that I've learned through research is that when a person is going to look at their life expectancy, generally speaking, the number one factor is not your socioeconomic status, it is not your gender or anything like with ethnicity, it is the relationships you had at the age of 50 and with social media now, that's the beautiful thing, is that we can all connect and have various levels of relationships throughout the world and making those connections that I know Jenn just like me probably in all the places she's racist, she has a place to stay if she needs to. And that's kind of cool. I think the other thing that I see about our sport, it gives you hope, it definitely gives you a high level of engagement and then your self worth. Even if you complete a workout, a recovery, it's like, whoa, I feel that was the best thing for me. I needed to go out there and move. And I think also what I see and I'm just beyond grateful, it's hard to even say this but my circle of influence when I first started this, it was extremely small. I was an inner city kid, I didn't go to Stanford University. It was pretty challenging time. But I look at the circle of influence now with our TriDot family, I look at our relationship with IRONMAN, I look at the athletes that I'm associated with, it's like, oh my goodness. And then I mentioned I had two 80 year olds in Kona and one was actually on the podium, one's going to be in Cozumel. And I'm thinking, I love it. Yeah, keep your legs underneath you a little bit more, buddy. You're not quite there yet. And I think it's also just leaving something behind that we look at our legacy and then also inspiring others to say we all inspire each other and that's the beauty of our sport. So I think at the end of the day it's going to be something that we're going to look back on to say I have no regrets because like our son told me the other night, he goes, dad, when you're in the hurts, there's not going to be a U haul behind you. And I say, wow, what a concept. I've never thought of that. So I don't want any regrets to make sure I can do all the races possible and stay in the sport.

Andrew Harley: The communities you have, you both have as part of this have kept you in it, have made the journey more rewarding and as have made you want to stick in it as long as you have. So just want to point that out but I, I'm curious as you, you know, you have your own personal journey then you, you both also have been coaching for a good while now as you're talking with athletes and working with athletes, what are the most common reasons you see people exit the sport of triathlon? Kurt, what do you think?

Kurt Madden: You know, it's on that question, I think what I've learned and I'd be curious of what Jenn is going to say, I think it's almost like a case by case. I think some, for whatever reason that you know, they have a, it's a lifestyle change, you know, that they're going to have to make some changes, some have an injury that's really going to prohibit them, they try to modify but it kind of gets to a point where it's almost terminal that we have to ask ourselves, is this the best thing for them? They can still exercise, but to compete or finish or participate with a swim, bike, run, it's maybe just not doable. I think for some people, too, it's just, you know, maybe it's professional, maybe it's a career change where they just have to do that. Because as we know, that all of us can get very busy and you're not taking time out for you to do some things that you really need to do. So that can get a little bit overwhelming. And then some people, it's just maybe personal reasons that they just don't share. But we try to, I try to, as a coach, as a mentor, as a guide, I try to extend that as long as possible to look at options. To look at options. If I can put my hands up with the athlete to say, we've done everything, a nice exit is good, but I want them to exit with a good feeling, a good experience, to say, someday, like all of us, just that boomerang, if you throw it right, you know, it's going to probably happen. It's going to actually come back to us.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, great point. And Coach Jenn, same question over to you. What are you kind of hearing from athletes as you're working with them?

Jenn Reinhart: Pretty similar to coach Kurt there. You know, some have an overuse injury maybe because they're not following the training plan. And, and we, you know, once we get them onto a solid plan with TriDot that we can. And we have a group, you know, it's like if, especially if someone's here in town, I can point, you know, go see this orthopedist or go see this physical therapist and let's see if we can't solve that issue with the right training and the right medical care. And then, you know, people come into the sport thinking, oh, I've got to do an IRONMAN. And they jump right in and do that as their first race. And sometimes that's just too overwhelming and they decide it's too much of a time commitment. It takes too much away from their family, and they don't give the sport an opportunity where, well, you know, sprints are really fun. You don't have to do an IRONMAN every time you race or every year.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, it's a great point.

Jenn Reinhart: I met a couple of athletes that have a really good plan. They do an IRONMAN every three or every five years. They don't try to commit to one every year. So finding what's going to fit with that person's family and profession. And some of us are just wired where, you know it, you know, aren't you going to go swim today? It's just something we do and finding that consistency is what really builds a good foundation to stay in the sport for a long time. Some people just aren't that committed. You know, it's their fear of missing out their FOMO because they see somebody else doing it, so they want to try it and maybe it just doesn't fit. But, you know, always encourage them to just, you know, a little, let's try a little bit at a time. Maybe you can't do, you know, three swims per week, but maybe you can do two. Maybe you can do, you know, maybe you can work out five days a week. Let's see how that works. And if we get the results you want and if you stay healthy, you know, some, it's just a fleeting interest. They, they, like I said, they, they do that one IRONMAN and they're done. They've checked the list off and they go on. I think Aquabike has really helped a lot of people because usually it's a running injury and, you know, a lot of the local races, even a few of the 70.3 races, allow Aquabike and I think that's been able to keep, keep some people engaged with the sport, too.

Andrew Harley: I'm curious to hear from the both of you. You know, as, as we're, you know, coming getting deeper in this conversation for athletes listening, you know who, they've heard you guys talk about your own journeys and they've heard us talk about the seasonality of being a triathlete and, and, and some of that. And, you know, we've talked about some of the reasons why people do leave the sport. If somebody is saying, like, man, I want to stick in this thing as long as possible, I want to be a Kurt Madden, Jenn Reinhardt, John Rankin, like, I want to be, you know, toeing the line as long as my body will allow me to. What is your coaching wisdom? Just from taking care of your body, fueling your body, doing the training, right, anything's on the table. What coaching wisdom would you most want to offer our listeners today for how to invest in yourself, invest in the proper lifestyle to keep this thing going as long as possible.

Jenn Reinhart: I think we all always read rest and recovery. I mean, you've got it, you've got to get enough sleep, you've got to recover on recovery days, not go hard. Even at my age, sometimes I have to remind myself, hey, this is a recovery day. Even though you feel good, it doesn't mean you can forget that it's supposed to be a zone two day and go hard. So you've got to really take. You've got to follow the plan. You have a good plan now, so let's follow it. You know, listening to your body, Matt Summer always has that great little. You know, you got to listen when you hear the whisper, not when you hear it yelling, you know, over the over my time, I've developed, you know, great relationships with a couple of orthopedists when I need something looked at my physical therapist and massage therapist and, you know, there are times during the year where I don't need any of those people. I just. I can handle my own recovery. But when something does start to flare up, I know to go see them before it becomes, you know, a showstopper. Strength as we age. I know Kurt can probably relate to this, too. It's like, it's so hard to hold on to muscle, especially if you have an injury that limits your ability to work out in any way. You know, you've got to make sure that you eat healthy during those time, those periods where you can't train and try to maintain muscle mass and not. I have a tendency to kind of wither away during those times when I've had some knee operations and, you know, sometimes it's my family that brings me back to reality. It's like, you know, you're 65 years old now. You can't act like you were when you were 45. And as much as I'd like to race, I mean, there were periods of my time where I raced almost every weekend. Be a sprint, then a 70.3 and then Olympic, and maybe I take a weekend off. But listen to your family. They can tell when you're doing too much and just back off and enjoy the sport. Sometimes we just get too caught up with trying to do what everyone else is doing, and we're not paying attention to ourselves.

Andrew Harley: It's okay to sign up for a race and go have fun at the race and not have every race be a big a race. Goal race. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Coach Kurt, what would you add here just from your experience, in terms of how can we stay in this for the long haul? What actionable steps can we take to try to extend our careers?

Kurt Madden: Yeah. I think, like Jenn said, the beauty of getting older as you gain more experience is something that is just so profound. It's called wisdom. And every day we live, we are getting wiser and wiser, and it's really incredible. But I want to go back to what I continue to see and learn and I preach and teach. It's really invest in yourself. Because I have a lot of people say, boy, this sport is very expensive. And they go on and on. And I said, absolutely. And you know what's really good about it? You're investing in you. You are your most important resource. So the more you can invest in yourself in any way, shape or form to improve, I think that is just going to be paramount. I think also too that, you know, if you have a coach, you have a mentor, you have some guide or an alliance of people that you work with, I think that's key. I even have a coach. After 46 years, Queen K said, that will never change. I said, thank you so much because just like Jenn said, she knows me well. She knows when I'm on, she knows when I'm off. And I think every person, they would say, honestly, I think if you say, I don't need a coach, I don't need a mentor, that you might be missing a little opportunity. So like Jenn, I've got various things that I do. I think that really I've learned and I try to really play kind of prevents. In other words, I have an acupuncturist, I have a massage therapist. I have people that I see that are very objective, that tell me not what I want to hear, but what I need to know. Because I'll have various blind spots that I don't notice that IT band. But all of a sudden someone, oh my goodness, what is going on here? So instead of seeing the kind of the dashboard light up on your car with all these red lights, it's like, no, I'm going to be preventive and I'm going to do it in such a way that I want to be out in front. I think also too, just looking at your lifestyle, you know, your rest, your sleep, your recovery, I'm very fortunate because I can work from home. My wife is not a five star chef, but she can flat out cook very well. There's very few little processed food in our house and she's taught me all about cooking and I think that is really, really key. And also too, the beauty of our sport is being able to travel. There's something about travel. And Andrew, you've known this, you travel all over the world and, and Jenn. And when I was a kid, I didn't have the financial wherewithal to do that. But now that I have, and for me it's just like I am so grateful to experience all these different things, different places. So I think the more that people can look at that, it is a very good investment because you know why? When you invest in yourself, you're going to be able to give back to others. It's kind of like the mother on the airplane that they see the light go off. What do they do with the oxygen mask? Put it on yourself first. Then you can help those around you.

Andrew Harley: One other thing I hear frequently, not frequently, but, but from folks who are kind of fading in their interest in triathlon or fading kind of out of being a triathlete in their lifestyle is they just kind of lose motivation. They just kind of lose a passion for it, right? They were all gung ho. They, they had goals, they ambitions, they had certain races they wanted to do, they had certain times they wanted to set. And, and after three, five, ten years of kind of chasing that, that, that those things, they just kind of lose, lose their mojo, so, so to speak. And, and, you know, if that happens and that was your season as a triathlete and you go on to other fulfilling things like that, that's great. But for the athlete that maybe is in a little bit of a funk, just in a little bit of a passion crisis, motivation crisis, and they really want to reignite that fire for the sport. Jenn, what would you say that to that person on just how to just, just kind of, kind of get your excitement back to be a triathlete in your lifestyle, Kind of open it up.

Jenn Reinhart: To them about, well, you know, if triathlon isn't exciting you right now and you're having motivation to get your daily workouts in, what, what would be interesting? Do you want to try trail running? A lot of. You see a lot of triathletes go back and forth. Kurt, good example of being a trail runner and not doing triathlon at all. Maybe it's something completely different. Maybe it's some, something in artistic or music or, you know, what have you wanted to do? But triathlon's been taking too much time. You know, take some time off, go try those things. If you miss triathlon, then figure out how to work it back in. Maybe it's a smaller scale. Maybe it's, you know, not the 70.3s and the fools, but maybe it's back to, you know, Olympic distance swimming. For me, every time I think about taking a break lately, it's, well, I really want to become a swimmer again. I used to be able to swim, fly and, you know, backstroke, and now I'm mostly just a freestyler. Could I become a swimmer again and just have a period where, you know, go and submerge myself, get back into five or six days of training, swimming and not worry about biking and running. You know, find out what they're thinking, what, what. You know, usually they're, you know, they thought about trying something else and they haven't because they've been so dedicated to triathlon. Take that break, see if there is something else and you know, if there's not, let's find what can get you motivated back in the sport. Is it, you know, some of the things that I've gotten to do, going to different, you know, going to Austria, going to Sweden, going to France and racing. Racing in a just a totally different environment can be reinvigorating. Get you, it's like, wow, that was really cool. I think Challenge Roth this year was one of those things that was once in a lifetime. So I started thinking, well, what are my bucket list events I want to do in triathlon? I'm, I hate to say this, I'm doing Escape from Alcatraz this year. I've always been so afraid of that cold water. I'm not afraid of the sharks, I'm afraid of the cold water. But I figure it's only, it's only, you know, a mile to a little over a mile swim. It's not a 2.4 mile swim in 55 degree water. So, you know, I'm trying to find those things that keep me interested in sports. So I would do the same process with, with the athlete that was struggling too.

Andrew Harley: Kurt, anything you want to add to just that, Reigniting the passion?

Kurt Madden: You know, what I do is I just go back to the athlete to say, wait a minute. It's kind of like Jenn said, I'm a little bit stubborn. Wait a minute. When I signed up for this, I said I was all in. And you know what, we're not done yet. And you've kind of, kind of tough love them a little bit to say, no, we're not done the journey. We hit a few speed bumps, but we're going to get back on our bikes again and keep riding this thing together and really try to get into and be a really good listener on again finding out their why. Let's revisit your why. Tell me what your purpose is every day. So I'm going to repeat what you said to me. Boom. And then your core values, your beliefs, your behaviors, everything I've seen with you in this journey, it really aligns and then really try to take them through a series of questions, but it's trying to really ask them what is keeping you awake at night? What implications are those things happening? Causing in your everyday world, if you had a magic wand, what would you do to change that? So I'm trying to move them from Pain island over to Pleasure island and Pleasure island is a much better place to be. And like how motivated are you? Well, I'm at an 8, 9 or 10. Perfect. Okay. And if you don't make the decision to continue this journey, how are you going to feel six months from now? So that's kind of where I start. And then I try to really guide them to this continuous improvement. You know we use that Japanese word kaizen, that anything we do we can continuously improve. And then Andrew, as we've talked just recently with some close friends last week just about the EQ component. So let's break down your eq, your emotional performance.

Andrew Harley: Let's talk about it.

Kurt Madden: Let's rate this on a five point scale. So if we break it down, where would you rate your self awareness? Oh, you're at a three. Okay, we're going to get you up to a four. What about your self regulation? What about just managing your emotions, getting those villains out of your head? Oh, you're out of two. I think we can raise that to a three. The next thing is your motivation level. You know what, we're going to elevate that. Your social skills, that's going to be huge. But the one I like the most is the empathy. And when you look at the eq, if you're really teaching your athlete to be self sufficient and intuitive, it's like how can they say no? So that motivation just elevates. And I think also and Jenn does a good job, you as a person, as a coach, you're modeling those things and it's hard for them to say no when kind of the elder or the parent is doing that like you Andrew with, you know, as a dad, the kids are going to follow that. And same thing as a coach, we need to be role models for them. And I think in doing that they're going to be in a much, much better situation as they continue to say, you know, I'm glad we've had this talk and let's get back on track and let's kind of get some low hanging fruit because we're going to hit those, those periods of funk but I'm going to get you to a better place.

Andrew Harley: Yeah. And some of those principles, Kurt, you're talking about, like we're, we're more used to hearing those terms associated with like career development or like team, you know, kind of your role in a team or just like you're kind of working on yourself, like self improvement, kind of like we don't normally hear like self regulation and terms like that attached to our fitness journeys. Right. But taking stock in those things can make a difference.

Kurt Madden: Yeah. And I'm going to add a little bit to this because for our listeners this is a real, real, real story. As I work with someone for three years now that's in her 60s, she goes, I have the life of just like a professional triathlete. I have the best training platform possible. I've got a coach that's all in. I am like a pro at the age of 60. And then we're on a call the other day and she's getting ready for Worlds and I'm all geared up. I reviewed her platform. We're looking at this training block coming up. Right when we started the call, I noticed a four legged creature right next to her. For 35 minutes she talked about how she lost a friend of 34 years over this dog named Bo. And for 35 minutes I sat back and I said, you need to change your course very quickly. The menu has changed in this conversation. Listen. And all I did was listen. We talked about the Worlds for five minutes. But I think that was so important for her because 20 minutes later I get a text message like this is the best one on one I have ever had. And as a, that's what she needed. And I think sometimes too people are just looking at, to say, hey, I just need a change of direction. I need to be empowered. I need someone that I can trust, that I can lean on.

Andrew Harley: I'm curious, Jenn, you mentioned kind of a season of your triathlon life where you were younger and you were racing almost every weekend, whether it was a local sprint or a 70.3. Now you dial back how often you race. Some people love racing as often as they can. I personally, I found my sweet spot is three or four races a year. Any more than that, I start feeling a little burnt out just on going through the race process that. But that's, that's me. Everybody's different. I've good friends in this sport that race a dozen times a year and they, they are fired up by that. Right. So just, I'm, I know it's somewhat athlete to athlete, Jenn, but as you're working with your athletes, do you find that kind of having some sort of, of, of protection over your race cadence or how often you race can impact your longevity or is it just kind of just more person to person do do what you need to do for yourself.

Jenn Reinhart: I would say that it used to be just person to person. And there was, there were so many. There were more races 10 years ago, at least locally in Austin, in my area, there were so many more local races. And the local races were always just really joyful because you saw all your friends. I think, you know, after Covid and we came back and started to race again. You, you know, that period where we didn't get to go to races and see our friends really made us realize how important that community is. And I mean a. There's so many factors that go into how many, how much somebody can race. It depends on, you know, whether they're IRONMAN athletes and their focus is that I usually try to have my IRONMAN athletes pick one or two fun races. Just go, just go and have fun. Because sometimes IRONMAN can get to be a grind. You know, budgets are sometimes limiting. Races have gotten expensive. I mean, you know, you used to be able to plop down $90 for a local Olympic distance, and now they're the local one here. Cap techs is like 210 or something. So, you know, the amount of finance you have can, can limit your racing schedule. I, I, you know, I had a long period of time where I probably raced 12 to 15 races every year. I would say three or four of those were 70.3s and one or two were IRONMANs with some local stuff mixed in. I don't think I got burnt out, but that was me. I have other people that. But you know, you know, one or two races, years perfect, that's what fits with their, their, their family life, their work. So just finding what fits for that athlete and you know, reigning in the ones that sometimes, I mean, I used to, when I had had a coach multiple times and I've had coaches, you know, say, Jenn, that's too much. You need to, you know, if your focus is this, then you need to not do that. That. And I think race X with TriDot really helps athletes see that because you can only put in so many A races and if you put in a C race, you've got to look at how that's going to affect your A race. So having tried out as a platform, you know, can really help an athlete choose and build a schedule that will work well so that they'll have the best outcome.

Andrew Harley: Yeah, super helpful, Jenn. So, you know, good to hear that there's, there doesn't seem to be a correlation. It's just kind of a choose your own path. Right. Race as much as you want to race and listen to your body, but that's not necessarily prohibitive of you extending your career. And it's not prohibitive the other way either. But Kurt, my question for you that I want to hear from you on is just what role can taking a break from the sport from time to time maybe play in your longevity? Both of you just had seasons of your life where you kind of took a step back for a variety of reasons. I've kind of outlined how I'm kind of in that right now, taking somewhat of a step back from, compared to how active I was in the sport, you know, three, five years ago. I see athletes, you know, the way TriDot, day to day, week to week, microcycle to mesocycle, manages your training stress. You don't need. Your body doesn't need a day off from training. It doesn't need a week off from training to rest or recoup because it's managing your training load so intelligently. So some athletes come on, try it out and they get surprised that they're on it four or five, six months, and you'll see them ping on Facebook like, hey, I haven't had a day off yet in tried out. Is that normal? Do it, like, should I take some time off? And, and so I see people ask about taking time off just in their season to season. So I'm just curious, like, in terms of like longevity in the sport, like, like Kurt, have you found that maybe for some folks it helps them extend their career to just kind of, of take, pause, take. Just shut it down for a week, shut it down for a few months, shut it down for the winter, the off season, whatever, shut it down for a year and just kind of enjoy other things of your life. Can that help extend a career or is that just again, kind of just person by person? It might help some people, it might not be necessary for others. What do you think, Kurt?

Kurt Madden: Yeah, I think it's just like anything. I think we need to break up routines. It's really, really important. I think there's, there's so much the sport can give us when you're focused and you're following a training plan or say you have a coach. At the same time, it's actually just saying I'm going to kind of go off the grid a little bit. Yes. I'm going to go on a cruise for a week and a half. I'm going to have some tiramisu, I'm going to relax in a chair. I'm only going to be in the gym for 30 minutes on the elbow. And I'm not going to feel guilty. And I think in doing that it gives you a very fresh perspective. Because I think in life we know that we have seasons when we're on, we have seasons where we're off a little bit. Nature kind of goes that way. We go through four seasons. Even with us, I think taking those mini breaks or sometimes longer breaks, it's good. But I think it's something where you have to continue to strive for things that are going to bring you joy and happiness and look at your entire life, even outside of triathlons. And I say that respectfully. I think the most important thing I find is spending time with family, especially as Jenn and I have gotten older. I'm sure she's no different than I. You might have some regrets and you've lost some people and you're going, oh my goodness, I wish I could have had coffee with that person one more time. But I was a little bit focused on trying to get to that main set to get it done when I should have had that. So I think doing that, I think it's good. And there's so much going on. Like I said, if we go back to the early 80s when Jenn and I start, they didn't have the choices that we have now. Today there's so much anyone can do to stay busy and active. I've got an athlete just. He said, I'm going direction this year all of a sudden now his weakness last year was strength training and he's starting to get into CrossFit and he's speaking that language and I'm like, oh my goodness. And he is so pumped up. He's like a 10 year old kid and I never thought that it would shift that. He's kind of a trail runner, he runs well. He's gone through pool school, he went to Australia for the USA to, you know, the competition over there. But he's really. And I'm saying, you know what, I'm not pushing back on him. I'm like, this is fantastic. Because you know what, that's the direction he wants to go. And I think as a coach or even if you're not coached, but try to coach the person where they are right now, don't try to pull them back and go, well, I think you should go back and swim, bike and run. And I need to change your preferences. Hey, that's real positive because he's having success and it brings the fulfillment and joy and happiness. So doing that, I think at the end of the day. You're going to be very well rounded. Even. Even. It's, it's, you know, I've got someone that's really close to me that's saying, I'm taking a ceramics class with my wife and I'm like, that's okay. I never thought I'd do that.

Andrew Harley: Please. Yeah, please do that.

Kurt Madden: You're a smart man. You're a very smart man. You should probably take a jewelry class too with that ceramics class and make it a win win. And then we'll throw a cooking class on top of that. Sure.

Andrew Harley: No. Great. Yeah. Great perspective there, Kurt. Super, super helpful. And last question I have for the both of you and this one will be real quick and we'll go Jenn and then Kurt on this one and we'll call it a day. But throughout the years, I'm sure both of you have had opportunities to hang it up and consider this race or that race to be your last race. But you're still here, you're still signing up for races, you're still doing your thing and you can share as much or as little as you want to here. What's the end game for you guys? How long do you think you'll be enjoying this multi sport lifestyle yourself, Jenn and then Kurt.

Jenn Reinhart: No, when we talk about the 80 year old athletes we have, it's hard to think that you would give up before that. If they can do it, surely I can find some way to do it too. And then Coach Kurt just nailed me for the 50th anniversary of IRONMAN. I hadn't even thought of that. That and my hopes would be that it would be back together, male and female on same race day. Incoming.

Andrew Harley: Well, yeah, maybe. We'll see.

Jenn Reinhart: And if that was the case, I would really have to go for that because I keep saying like Kona 2023 was supposed to be my last Iron man. But then I realized that Barb Campbell and another athlete, one of coach Kurt's athletes, Christine, we were all interested in challenge Roth and then we got the, the travel agency hooked up with, with us and it was like a no brainer. Okay, so I'm doing challenge Roth and then I see the extra slots in Cozumel and it's like, well, maybe I could go do Cozumel. Maybe if I was really lucky I could get a slot for Kona 2025. And it's like I keep adding these Iron Mans that I said I was done with. You know, I think at some point I will have to back off of that distance I want my, my, my new fake knees to last a little longer, but as long as I'm not having pain, I'm kind of thinking that I'm staying strong. And so that's, that's my, my end game is to stay strong. And I, I think as a coach, I'll know when my life as an athlete should slow down. I hope that even when I slow down from an athlete standpoint, that I can keep contributing from a coaching side. And I've even seen some athletes that, you know, have those, those life stopping injuries or that prevent them from continuing in triathlon. I've seen several go into being, you know, volunteers, but more importantly becoming race officials. And so there's, there are other avenues and I'm lucky enough that I've got my coaching avenue and I hope that, that if I have to stop as an athlete that I can at least continue the enjoyment of the sport by, by helping others enjoy it.

Andrew Harley: It's such an interesting perspective that I hadn't thought of and that's why you guys are, are the, the wise ones here in the podcast. But just that even if you can't race anymore, it doesn't have to end. You know, your, your triathlon story doesn't have to end. There are other ways to be involved in this wonderful sport. Thank you for sharing that, Jenn. Coach Kurt, same question over to you.

Kurt Madden: Almost identical. Jenn, that's the beauty of just working with you is I think all of us, we want to decline graciously and I say that, I say that some do and some don't. But I think declining graciously, you accept it versus well, 10 or 15 years ago I did this. Now it's in the moment, this is where I am. And just enjoy. Be the best you can be. And I think, just like Jenn said, I think I would know when it's time. It could be a financial situation, it could be a physical thing that, you know, something that happens or maybe even a family situation. However, I think it's kind of like being quarterback when you're out there and knowing that I'm not going to be quarterback forever and you know, sometimes you will be replaced or maybe being a defensive person to say, hey, on third down, I'm going to go and play a different position. So for me, the beauty of coaching is still a win because I can get just as pumped up coaching and it's more stressful kind of being a coach than actually doing it. I mean, I've got six people out there. I'm praying and hoping everything goes well, but it's good because I get really excited about that. And then also, like Jenn said, my wife, Queen K is just the volunteering, I think, giving back. So it's something that you want to continue because it's like we've talked about in this podcast, this sport will do so much for you if you stick with it. It's kind of like investing in real estate. You're not going to get rich overnight, but if you continue to pay your tuition, pay your tuition, at the end of the day, things are going to work out great.

Cool Down: Asymmetric Breathing

Announcer: Everyone, let's cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: It's cool down time. And I'm Vanessa, your average triathlete with elite level enthusiasm for our coach cool down tip today. I am super excited to be here with Chris Navin. Chris is a metabolic specialist and endurance coach who opened his very own human performance lab. So to say that he has a wealth of knowledge is a massive understatement. I think the most impressive part is that his actions speak louder than his words. He has completed over 400 endurance events with podiums and age group rankings that will knock your socks off. Chris considers himself to be a Swiss army knife kind of coach who uses metabolic testing in addition to focusing on the technique side of swim, bike and run. Welcome to the show, Chris.

Chris Navin: Hey, thanks for having me.

Vanessa Ronksley: I think it's safe to say that we can officially call you a biohacker, but this isn't the first kind of hacker that you have been classified as previously. So tell us how you came to be a certified ethical hacker.

Chris Navin: Yeah, so coming out of college, my background was in business management and also IT. And so I actually worked for one of the biggest banks in the country doing IT security and risk management. And one of my certifications at the time was becoming a certified ethical hacker white hat. So, you know, hacking computer systems to figure out how to optimize things for performance and for security. So, yeah, that's kind of my first hacking experience, which actually take a lot of that into human performance now too.

Vanessa Ronksley: Do you really?

Chris Navin: Yeah, it's a lot of, a lot about, like, you know, managing, you know, controlling things so that you don't risk exposing yourself to too much risk. And so with, with think about endurance, like not, not overheating, not bonking, those types of things, you're controlling the variables to really make sure that the system, your, your human body is, you know, as safe as it can be when it's doing these extreme, extreme, you know, feats of endurance.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, I think that this goes hand in hand with the tip that you're going to share with us today. So tell us, tell us what you have to share with our audience.

Chris Navin: Yeah, so one of the tips I always like to give athletes, especially runners, but you can use this in cycling as well, is, is focusing on your breathing because oxygen is a fuel source. And so the more you can get in efficiently, the better you will perform. So asymmetric breathing rate simply means that you're, you're breathing in at a rate that is asymmetric. And so when you think about running, you know your cadence might be 90 steps per minute, or 180 beats if you count both legs. And you simply want to sync up your breathing rate to your cadence when you're running. And so every three steps you take, it's about one second. And if you think about how many breaths you take with every footstep, the idea is quite simply that you want to finish every breathing cycle asymmetrically so you finish your exhale on a different side of your body. Because if you always finish, if I breathe in for two steps and out for two steps, I might always finish my breath and my exhale on the right side of my body. And if I keep doing that over and over again, I'll develop an imbalance with my running form and technique. If you breathe asymmetrically, you're going to be alternating that. So you'll be finishing your breath on a different side of your body every single time. And so it helps with running form, but it also gets you to focus on your breathing, which from a metabolic standpoint gives you more oxygen. If you breathe into your nose more, you get more oxygen into your system and you'll actually be able to oxidize fat as a fuel source and run more metabolically efficient.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay. Wow, that is okay. There's so many different levels of mind blowing things that are happening there that you've just said. So one thing I have a question about is if you are breathing symmetrically, that small of an adjustment can actually impact your, your physiological balance. Like anatomical balance.

Chris Navin: Yep. Like a lot of times when people get a side stitch cramp, it actually comes from symmetric breathing. Like if you're always finishing that exhale on the same side of your body and you start developing this imbalance. It's very common for people to start just, you know, developing muscular imbalance, but other things that can just affect your physiology or your performance. So it's, yeah, it's a small thing, but it's kind of an interesting way to kind of like hack and optimize your own performance. And we also use it when we think about efforts, too. I call it the poor man's heart rate monitor. Because if you're running and you notice your breathing rate is really high, like if you're taking two steps and you breathe in and two steps when you breathe out, like, that's a pretty fast breathing rate. And that usually indicates that you're in zone five in terms of a heart rate effort. And if you're breathing asymmetrically, like 2, 3, like in, into, out 3, that usually means that you're in about zone 4. And then as you continue down that progression, you know, people want to know, am I in zone two when I'm doing a workout? And if your breathing rate is really low, like a 4, 3 breathing rate, meaning you're taking four steps, like 1, 2, 3, 4, as you breathe out, and then 1, 2, 3, as you breathe in, that usually indicates that somebody's in zone two. So as a coach, when I run next to somebody, I listen to their breathing and I can tell what heart rate zone they're basically in just by paying attention to that.

Vanessa Ronksley: I just, like, my mind is completely blown here because I. Based on what you've just said, I don't think that I ever actually enter zone five.

Chris Navin: Yeah, well, usually the place that people hit, like endurance athletes, we get used to running at the same paces all the time, so we tend to be a little bit more control. But especially with beginner athletes, you'll see them even in the start of a running event, like, they'll do a 5K. You might be in a 2, 2 breathing rate the whole time from the get go. But in longer endurance events, I actually use it from a competitive standpoint too. Because if I'm running next to somebody and I notice that they're breathing into, out to, and I'm breathing, you know, into out three, I'm a little more controlled, and that means I can usually have an extra gear that I can kick it up into when I hit that final mile. So you can use it from a competitive standpoint as well. But it's something to, you know, it's an easy way to pay attention to your body and you don't need gadgets. You know, as much as I love my gadgets.

Andrew Harley: Yeah.

Chris Navin: And monitoring my heart rate, it's an easy way to really focus on your metabolism.

Vanessa Ronksley: I really, really think that this is going to drastically alter my thought process while I'm actually running. I hope that does that for the audience out there as well. I know it's one more thing to think about, but I think when we're doing these kinds of efforts, it is so important to be mindful of what we're doing. And I think a lot of times people can let their minds wander and just follow the prescribed zone by looking at their power or whatever. But I think when you start bringing your breathing into it, it makes it more of a whole body experience. And I think that the gains that you're going to get are going to be way more valuable when you're not just focusing on your cadence or if you have your cadence down. Like, what's the next level? I think this is like next level improvement.

Chris Navin: Yeah, it helps you get your cadence up. It helps you find like people who say they've never found their runners high. When you're running, focus on your breathing rate. If you can hold a 4, 3 breathing rate, that's usually where people will find that runner's high and they'll just feel like they can run forever.

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