Safety, Speed, & Style: Choosing a Bike Helmet for Triathlon

TriDot Podcast Episode 315

Safety, Speed, & Style: Choosing a Bike Helmet for Triathlon

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Andrew Harley: Welcome to the TriDot podcast. Today we are talking all about bike helmets. When you ride, it is essential to protect your head, and there are a number of things to know about getting your helmet selection right. Here to help us do that is Mike Buenting. He is the Sports Marketing Manager for Rudy Project North America, so his firsthand knowledge of the bike helmet industry will steer us all in the right direction. I'm Andrew, the average triathlete, Voice of the People and Captain of the Middle of the Pack. We treat the show like any good workout. We'll start with our warmup question, settle into our main set conversation, where we'll learn about bike helmets, and then wind things down by having Mike answer a question from our audience on the Cool down. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.

Intro: This is the TriDot Podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world class coaching with every conversation. Let's get started with today's warmup.

Andrew: All right, Mike, welcome to the show. And you and I have been on site at a lot of the same events: you representing Rudy Project and racing, and me representing TriDot while I'm racing. And so for our warm up question of the day, I'm curious to know, from all of your triathlon related travels, what is the biggest travel snafu you have experienced? Take it away.

Mike Buenting: Hey, thanks for having me on the Tri Dot Podcast today. Excited to be here. Travel snafu. I would say, I think it was 2018, I was flying to Denmark to race world champs for duathlon. So run, bike, run.

Andrew: Oh cool.

Mike: Yeah. And I remember we flew to Copenhagen, got the rental car, drove out to Odins – where the town was, where we were racing – which is maybe a few hours drive. And I got there, I rolled my bike in its bike bag into the Team USA mechanic, and we pulled it out, and it was broken. Like parts were laying in the bottom of the case, and the Team USA mechanic didn't have what I needed. So I left my bike in the bag and began to roll it around cobblestone streets – after being awake for like 24 hours – going to bike shops and try to figure out how–

Andrew: Who can fix this? Yeah.

Mike: And does anybody have a part? And so finally at the last shop I ended at, the kid there, I traded a 12 pack of beer for a road bike that was on his showroom floor that didn't fit me properly, and then I left my bike as collateral. And he let me borrow this road bike to race the race. So I raced on a road bike instead of a tri bike. It didn't fit me properly, and it cost me a 12 pack of beer.

Andrew: How did your body feel after riding that long on an ill-properly fitted bike?

Mike: You know, it was really frustrating because I'm a fast runner. So coming off the first 10k, I was in the top five. And I could only hold on for so long on the bike until everyone on fast bikes flew by me. I threw down a good 5k at the end, and I wrote as strong as I could. I think I probably ended up in the top 10, or maybe just outside the top 10. But not–

Andrew: Yeah, good! Yeah, great.

Mike: –quite where I wanted to be because when you're on a road bike that doesn't fit you, it's, it's kind of like, you know, not, not the right tool for the job.

Andrew: That is a top tier story. I threw this question in. I know you traveled a lot, and that's a good one right there. My answer here, Mike: my wife and I, before we started having kids, when it was just the two of us, we would kind of use races for vacations, right? We pick a race somewhere interesting in the world and turn it into a two week trip. And so when I went to race 70.3 Greece – you know, we're pretty competent trip planners. Like, we feel good about figuring out where to stay, and where to go, and itineraries. But Greece was so complex because you can take the ferry to this island, and a plane to that island, and there was so much to it, that we actually use a travel agency to help us book a lot of that trip. And so we were doing two weeks in Greece; at the end of the trip, I was doing the half IRONMAN there, and then we were flying home. And so when I was going back and forth with the travel agency, you know, I was telling them what I was doing, and so they knew that I'm bringing a bike. I had, at the time, one of the Scicon big bike suitcases. And so I was telling them, “Hey, when we get picked up from the airport, like, we've got these two bags, we're gonna have a couple travel bags, and I've got this big bike case.” And they’re like, “Yeah, yeah, like, no problem, we'll make sure the car's big enough. Can you send us the dimensions of the bike case?” And so I send them the dimensions of the bike case. And so we get there, we land, we get all our luggage, we go outside, and it's just a normal taxi that was booked for us, with a normal trunk and a normal back seat. And like, the guy's looking at me, I'm looking at the guy, and we're like, we gotta figure out how to get this in. And so we ended up like, the bike thankfully fit in the trunk. The trunk was still, like, open. He like bungee corded the trunk together for it to not all fly out. And then my wife and I are crammed in the back seat of the taxi with all of our, like, big luggage suitcases on our laps. And we rode that way, 20, 30 minutes to the hotel in Athens. But thankfully we got there. I was just, I was just glad we got there. But it was like, guys, like, we talked about this. I told you exactly what I was bringing and how big it is. And, you know, it was what it was. We got through it. So that's my story here. We're going to throw this question out to our audience. So whether you're watching us on YouTube or Spotify, you can comment in the comment section below. From all your triathlon travel, what is the biggest travel snafu you have encountered? If you're in the I AM TriDot Facebook group, I'm going to pose this question to the I AM TriDot Facebook group. Let us know: from all your travels what's gone wrong? Can't wait to hear it.

Announcer: Let's go.

Andrew: On to our main set. And Mike, I'm so excited to have you with me, just to talk all things bike helmets. But before we, kind of, have you share your goodness and your knowledge, you know, you're new to our podcast audience. I know you're very familiar with TriDot, and we see you a lot at the races; you know a lot of members of our team. But I want our audience just to get to know you for a second. So before we hear from Mike the helmet expert, I want to hear from Mike the triathlete. When did you get into the sport, and how long have you been a triathlete? What are some of your favorite events you've done along your journey?

Mike: Yeah, I've been around sport a long time. I would say my background started in running, and I was a run coach, and a marathoner, and I ran–

Andrew: Cool!

Mike: –40 plus marathons. And travel–

Andrew: What's that marathon PR? What's that marathon PR, Mike?

Mike: 2:39. So II've only run, maybe – of like 40 plus marathons, probably only three of them have been over three hours. Otherwise, everything's been a sub three.

Andrew: That's awesome.

Mike: So during my serious, kind of more marathon-y days, triathlon was my way to cross train in the summer between doing a spring and a fall marathon. And so I started in sport by just doing sprints and olympics, you know, mostly local races, things like that. And then I started getting more serious and kind of really, you know, getting into the sport more. 2012 is when I did my first IRONMAN, which was IRONMAN Arizona. I'm excited– I'm training for IRONMAN Arizona right now, which is going to be the final one of that race, I guess. So I'm glad I get to do the final edition of it. You know, so I've been around, you know. And then probably 20, 25 years, been, you know, doing triathlon, marathoning, all the things. I'm 51 years old, so I'm an old dude, you know. I have a daughter that was a collegiate triathlete. So she started racing with me when she was 8 years old –

Andrew: Super cool.

Mike: – got a scholarship to go do it on one of the NCAA teams. Just graduated in the spring, and now she's at grad school getting her masters in exercise science. So triathlon is like a way of life. And it to me, like, I love being at events in the community, and seeing all the athletes, and supporting the athletes. And you know, when I travel to an IRONMAN for work – like I was just at Chattanooga over the weekend, or when I was at Lake Placid this summer – I mean, I'm the guy that's at the swim start, and I'm out there till probably 11 o' clock at night or something, just cheering all day long, and just like, “Hi everybody.” Bringing the energy. I'd say my favorite race of anything I've ever done has to be Challenge Roth in Germany. It's epic. I mean, you've never experienced triathlon until you go to Germany, and you see the way the Europeans embrace it, and the way that event is put on. Like there's just, you know, no matter what's going on out there, there's just walls of people screaming at you. It's pretty awesome. You know, another new favorite of mine I just did a couple weeks ago is IRONMAN 70.3 Tri Cities in Washington.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ve heard good things.

Mike: And that was what you said you and your wife do, race-cations– that's what this was. It was my 25th wedding anniversary. So my wife and I love wine, so we went out to tour wineries. So I lived at wineries all week drinking wine–

Andrew: What a week!

Mike: And then we raced at the end of the week. And then I, you know, I go on and throw down the fastest run, qualify for world champs in Nice, and have this great race all fueled on wine. So it was great.

Andrew: That was my next question, was how was your performance? And so pretty good, pretty good off the wine.

Mike: Yeah the performance went well. You know, I'm finally getting my run legs back, which has been something I've been working on all year. Yeah.

Andrew: New hydration strategy coming from Mike here, to preload with wine the week of your race.

Mike: Yeah, preload with Cabernet, and you'll be ready to roll.

Andrew: So Mike, talking about helmets – and I've got my two current helmets on my desk to kind of show and tell – but I'm just, I know for you it's going to be Rudy Project helmets. What are the helmets in your personal rotation right now, that when you go out for rides you're putting them on and you're using them.

Mike: Yeah, I got my three top ones right here.

Andrew: Yes!

Mike: So in fact, this morning – I don't know if you can see this – this is called the Rebel by Rudy Project. So this is an all new helmet that came out. This is what I rode for three hours in today. This is an extremely lightweight helmet. It's our lightest weight helmet. It's about 220 grams–

Andrew: Looks very, very airy.

Mike: It's 100% made of recycled material. So Rudy Project has this initiative called Ride to Zero, where we're trying to lessen our impact on Mother Earth. So like all of our eyewear frames are made from recycled material. And then this helmet is the first iteration in it, and it's extremely safe– comes with the Virginia Tech five star safety rating. It's very lightweight. So this has kind of been my go to training helmet for, a lot of times, a gravel bike. So the gravel bike riders, or the cross country mountain bike riders that I work with, a lot of them will ride in the Rebel.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mike: The other helmet I wear a lot because I love pink is the Nytron, and we'll kind of go–

Andrew: That's the one I've seen you in at the races. I've seen you in that one kind.

Mike: Yeah. We’ll kind of go into this one later because this is a great all-arounder. This is designed in the wind tunnel with Swiss Side. It's extremely fast and aerodynamic. But it's a road style helmet, so you can obviously wear it in triathlon. You can wear it in road cycling, draft, legal triathlon– like a lot of the draft collegiate NCAA teams that I work with, this is what their girls wear because it's aerodynamic, and it's legal to wear in draft legal type stuff. So my gravel riders will wear it. And then the other one is, you know, I don't really train in it much, but it's the all new Wingdream by Rudy Project. The fastest aero helmet on the market right now. The most ventilation, comfort. This is my race helmet in triathlon. Very rarely do I ever put it on in training because you just–

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike: –you look goofy.

Andrew: I've, yeah, I've seen that one very recently on all the socials for the Rudy Project pros, right, as they're gearing up for the World Championships. I've started seeing that one on their heads in their pictures, and it's like, man, that thing is, it's cool looking. It's ridiculous looking in a cool-cycling-pro way, right. But what–

Mike: Yeah, it's dominating the wind tunnels and stuff. It's fast. I mean if you go down the list, tons of the athletes we don't even sponsor, I mean, I sell the helmet to lots of pros just because that's the helmet that tests fastest on them.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And that's what they– that makes a big difference for them, and we'll get to some of that kind of stuff in a minute. But my current rotation – and my rotation is dated, and we're going to talk a little bit about when it's time to replace your helmet. I've had these two helmets for a long time. My road cycling helmet: a Kask Pertone – however you're supposed to say it, I'm probably going to get it wrong. That's what I do my around town road riding in, and that, honestly, was just like– when it was time to get a new road helmet, what did the triathlon shops – we have Playtri shops here in Dallas/Fort Worth, around us – so what did Playtri have in stock that fit my head well, and that's why I bought that one. There was really no other rhyme or reason to it other than that. And this guy, literally, I bought this about seven years ago, maybe. So again, dated – the POC Cerebel.

Mike: We're going to fix your helmet collection.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And selfishly again, I know it's dated. I know a lot of stuff has hit the market since I've bought these. So maybe selfishly I just wanted to learn about Rudy Project's lineup. And honestly, I asked Mike to come on. There was no, like, push to– this isn't a big giant ad for Rudy Project. I want to learn about helmets. I knew he was the guy. So just genuine conversation here. But yeah, this is my POC Cerebel. You'll notice that it does not have the built-in visor plugged in. I always use my sunglasses instead of the built-in visor, which we'll talk about that in a little bit, as well. Pros and cons to that. Yeah, I've done all my racing in this for a while, and that's my current lineup. So if you're watching this on YouTube, or watching us on Spotify, you get to see Mike and I's helmets. If you're listening to us, well, you just got the audio description, which is all good. But Mike, what I'm curious about – before we talk about how to pick the right helmet – how are these things made? Just from step number one, I imagine some sort of design process, to them hitting the store shelf, what is the process here?

Mike: That's a question I won't be very good at answering since it's not, kind of, my world.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mike: So obviously we're an Italian company. We have a helmet designer in Italy, Niberto, who works on all the helmet designs. A lot of, I think, a lot of our stuff is collaborations, like, with our Grand Tour team, Team Bahrain, that we sponsor. So like, those athletes, that team director, I think, they'll get together and spend years sketching things out, handcrafting models, taking them to wind tunnels, or whatever they do to test, and try to find out what it kind of works there, and then get it to the point where it's ready to go into production. And then you know, Niberto and the team in Italy deals with the factory and all that kind of stuff. So I can't speak clearly to that because I don't get too involved in the actual–

Andrew: Sure.

Mike: –you know, process of making them. I learn about them once they're designed and kind of ready to go. You know, with the Wingdream, our new aero helmet, I was part of a little bit of testing it last summer some, and giving some feedback to a couple little tweaks we made before it did hit the public. Mostly just in the visor, type of thing. But other than that. Yeah, I don't get too– I don't get involved at all, I should say, in the making of the helmets. I'm just told, “Here's the new lineup coming out. Let's talk about it, and how to market it, and educate athletes on it.”

Andrew: Yeah. So the product team comes up with some sort of initial sketch. They put together, I'm sure, prototypes. You're one of the beta testers for the prototype, give some feedback, and then the final materials are chosen. I'm sure the final ‘everything’ is chosen. Very much the same with software, right. And there are, you know, we have our software developers always refining TriDot, refining RunDot. There's actually a lot of new exciting stuff coming to our app that I know is being beta tested right now by staff and ambassadors. So sounds similar. But I'm like you, right. I'm part of the marketing arm. I'm part of the “let's get out there and talk about it” arm. So totally get that. But I remember, Mike, when I first became– so you've been in the sport for 20 to 25 years. I've been in triathlon for 10-13, 10-12, 2014. So I guess 11 years now I've been in triathlon. And I remember when I first got into the sport, for me the cycling was the last component. I was swimming in the gym regularly, I was running after work regularly. And so adding on the bike was like the last part of me becoming a triathlete. And so I was like, everything was new to me. Like I just went down to the bike shop and bought an entry level specialized road bike, and just whatever helmet they sold me, whatever shoes they sold me. And I've learned a lot since then. But I remember when I was starting to learn and upgrade this piece of gear, that piece of gear, get a more triathlon version of this, a more triathlon version of that. When I started looking at helmets, it was like, oh, here's the highly ventilated road lightweight helmet. Here's the, kind of, everyday well-rounded helmet. Here's the aero road helmet. Here's the race TT helmet. And every brand kind of has, like, their line of ‘which helmet you're supposed to use for what’, and so I guess what I'm curious is, like, what are the biggest differences in the different types of helmets that each brand has that they market to us as athletes?

Mike: Yeah, there's a lot of variety in helmets. And a question I answer with athletes all the time, you know, in trying to figure out what helmet's right for them. You know, there's obviously lightweight, like we talked about the Rebel. It's super lightweight. It has a lot of vent. It has 22 vents in it, so it vents extremely well. So if you're in hot climates, things like that. We kind of talked about stuff that's like an aero road helmet, you know, that has great ventilation but it's more aerodynamic. Can even, you know, because it's not as open and vented, keep you a little warmer on like a cool climate, or a cool day, or whatever. And of course you get into all the aero helmets and the crazy stuff there. You got mountain bike helmets, you got stuff you would ride gravel. I mean really, riding gravel, they're using, you know, stuff from the road. So a road cycling helmet. And even cross country mountain biking, most of the cross country mountain biker racers — because it's not as technical, steep trails, it's, you know, flowy trails – they're going to use more road style helmets; also–

Andrew: Interesting. Yeah.

Mike: –a lot like our, you know, something like the Rebel and stuff like that. Because when you're doing an endurance-type race, you know, whether it's like the UNBOUND Gravel race or it's something like a Leadville 100 mountain bike race or something, I mean weight's a big thing, right. You're out there for 10–

Andrew: Weight, ventilation is probably bigger than aero.

Mike: Yeah, they're going to be huge, you know. And then, you know, comfort is another key piece to it, too. And like we have, I call them, two different style road helmets that are sort of similar. One, the Rebel that I showed you, and then we also have another one called the Egos. And I think sometimes it comes to even, like, people's head shapes. I can wear both quite well. But sometimes I find dealing with people– like the Egos might fit one head shape a little better than the Rebel would fit. So there's a little bit of that that comes into play too, you know, depending on things. But I think, you know, the biggest thing I always find – because I ride bikes for a long time – I always say – and it's kind of even in shoes or lots of things – you can kind of suffer through an hour workout in about anything. The minute you cross the hour barrier and you start going longer, you need to start really thinking about the nutrition, the comfort of your gear, all of those other things.

Andrew: 100%, yeah.

Mike: You have to factor in a lot more. So I think you, kind of, got to look at what it is you do, and then, kind of, figure it out from there.

Andrew: Yeah. And the reason I ended up in this POC Cerebel is I was finally stepping up from doing local sprint/olympics to doing my first half IRONMAN. I was like, “Okay, I need, I want a proper TT helmet.” And just for family budget, I was looking for, “what is the cheapest deal I can score on somebody's aero TT helmet?” And I happen to find this one in my size on eBay for 150 bucks. At the time, it was a great deal for how much that helmet was going for. I live in Dallas, Texas. It's a pretty hot helmet, to be honest. It's not the most comfortable on my head. I can do it for half IRONMAN pretty well. I could feel it on my head, the back half of my first IRONMAN, right. And so yeah, that's a big deal. I ended up in that one just because it was the right price at the time I was purchasing a TT helmet, and I've just kind of grinned and bared it ever since. But you're 100% right. On our podcast all the time when we're talking about stepping up from shorter distances to longer distance, comfort is just a big one that we talk about. But it's interesting watching, like, just on social media – when I'll see clips from like Cyclo-cross, professional events. I'll see clips from the mountain bike events, you mentioned Leadville – and it's interesting to see, like, what are those guys grabbing? And it's a lot of– it's road helmets that those guys are using. So really, really interesting. Is it good for us, just as average triathletes, just as everyday triathletes, is there enough of a difference between these models that it's good for us to have two, three, four different helmets for different purposes? Or can we get away with the one or two?

Mike: So, yes. If you can own multiple helmets, obviously, great. If you can't, then I have my suggestion. So if you can have at least two helmets, let's say, I would say you would want a nice, lightweight, good, everyday road-style training helmet. You know, something along the lines of this, you know, the Rebel bike helmet, right. That's what you're going to wear all days. But if you're racing, especially 70.3 or further, faster, you can't… you got to have one–I mean it really–

Andrew: It makes a huge difference, yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Now I would say, you know, if you're chasing podiums, World Championship slots, trying to better your time–

Andrew: Or just a PR. Or just a personal PR.

Mike: Or just a PR, that's going to make a difference because the data on that helmet, I mean that's free watts. I mean, we're finding out riders are saving, using that Wingdream, anywhere from probably 8 to 16 watts. Over the course of an IRONMAN, it's saving them upwards of like 12 minutes in their bike split or something, which is a significant amount of time. So there's definitely a reason to use that helmet. Now if you can only afford one helmet, you're just entry, getting into the sport, you're still on your road bike, all the things – just get a road helmet. I'd get a Nytron. I'd get the aero road-style helmet.

Andrew: Yeah, like an aero road helmet. Yeah.

Mike: In fact, when I did Challenge Roth last summer, I wore this – I wore my pink Nytron because I wasn't there chasing anything. I was there for the experience, I was there for– and I know that's a very comfortable helmet for 112 miles on a bike. It's easy to pack into my backpack and take with me all the things, and I was going to be out there training and riding bikes for a few days, and I only had space for one helmet. So that helmet just, it worked, you know. Now would I do that all the time? No. I mean typically I take my Wingdream with me and we have a really nice travel case. So I think the rider just needs to look at – obviously their budget – and then look at what types of riding. I mean, so many of us triathletes are starting to diversify and ride gravel bikes, do other types of riding besides just sitting in aero bars all the time. So that's where I think, yeah, having a couple options is really good.

Andrew: Yeah. There's a really cool feature in TriDot that a lot of our listeners, if you've been on the app for a while, you'll know this. Some listeners might not know this. It's kind of an advanced feature. Not even an advanced feature, just a feature. You need to know it's there to go find it. But you can, in your RaceX, like if you add a race to your calendar. So let's say, Mike, who's doing IRONMAN Arizona, you can open up that race, and you can play with aerodynamic scenarios for your bike setup. And so you can show TriDot, “okay, I have a medium caliber aerodynamic helmet, and I have an intermediate aerodynamic bike. I have deep dish wheels. I'm going to wear a skinsuit,” and it will, based off of that, estimate what your CDA is going to be, and then spit out what is your potential bike split. So you can play with – it's called “What If Scenarios” – you can run a “What If Scenarios” of ‘what if I bought a nicer helmet?’ And so if you go from a entry level road helmet to the most advanced one that Mike's talking about, you can actually see in TriDot, on IRONMAN, Arizona course with your fitness, how much time would that save you versus deep dish wheels or versus a different purchase? You can kind of spend your money appropriately, and I think you'll find the helmet is a pretty good bang for your buck, aerodynamic saving. So that’s one of the things we talk about.

Mike: That's a cool feature. I did not know that existed in TriDot.

Andrew: It's in there, my man.

Mike: I’m just learning something. That's awesome.

Andrew: Yeah, it’s in there.

Mike: But yeah a helmet, an aero-type helmet is the least amount of money for the biggest watt-saving gain you can get in triathlon. So first would be a helmet, next would be wheels, and then you kind of go from there.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Another example there is, like when I went and did Escape from Alcatraz, I ran a scenario for will I be faster on my aero road bike, or will I be faster on my TT bike on this course with my fitness, and for me, the road bike was the better pick. It looked at my fitness, looked at the up and down hills, and so I took the road bike. But anyway, so Mike, just you talking about just how many do we really need, to me, it kind of reminds me of like a run shoe rotation. And you'll probably know this as a running guy, like if somebody has the budget for just one run shoe, they don't want to go out and just constantly have three or four shoes in the closet, you can get a good daily trainer that is suited to race day, that's light, has the latest foams. Or if you can afford a couple pair, you can have like a beefier daily trainer for the long, slow day, and you can have a race day shoe, and you can have a tempo day shoe. And so to me, it sounds kind of like the same thing. Like if you can just afford one helmet, you only want to bother with one helmet. Okay. Get that aero road helmet, that it has some aerodynamic properties but still has some ventilation, is still practical for day-to-day riding. But if you can afford to have a couple, it sounds like it's good to have a couple. I've always felt like I have enough with the two. I absolutely see where you have, working for Rudy Project, you can have the three. So you've got the lightweight one, the middle, the aerodynamic one. So yeah, that's, it's just budget, right? It's just budget. How many can you get in your arsenal–

Mike: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew: –to do something different?

Mike: And it'll, I mean, it also makes the helmet life longer, right?

Andrew: True.

Mike: Like, we will get into this right. Because, obviously, the UV rays of the sun and all the stuff that beat down on your helmet and the more you wear it, it's going to wear out faster. So you can kind of afford to spend the money on that proper aero helmet and get a longer lifespan out of it, probably, because, because you're only maybe wearing it, you know, a handful of times a season, right. Otherwise you're kind of keeping it protected and safe. Where that road helmet you wear daily is going to wear out faster. You're going to turn it over faster. Just like in shoes, you know. Like when I coached runners, we were talking about one pair of shoes, like to avoid injury, you kind of needed multiple pairs of shoes because you needed the rotation, because you needed the foam to rebound the next day after, before you went out on it. You know, you got to track miles on shoes. You kind of almost track mileage on time in the sun on your helmet too, right?

Andrew: Interesting. Interesting. Yeah. And we'll get to that. The next thing I want to talk about though, while we're talking about aerodynamic properties of these helmets is: I've got a couple questions for you about race day helmets specifically, because that's a big choice, right. We're talking about how much time you can save just by choosing the right helmet on race day. And all the pros are going to wear the big time aero one. There's so many watt savings there if you can afford to have a specific race day helmet. But you know, those athletes, they have the ability to go into the wind tunnel. You mentioned a moment ago, so many are going into the wind tunnel and finding the new Rudy Project one to be faster than the version of the brand they're sponsored by, right. So they're switching to yours for the time savings. They can afford to go do that, right, and get in the wind tunnel and figure that out. For the rest of us, like, how can we – and I remember trying to do this as an athlete – how can we look at what our position on the bike is and figure out between these five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten different helmets on the market, which one is going to be the best fit for our aero position.

Mike: So that gets back to almost another pitch for the Wingdream. Because, I mean– and I don't know if you follow–

Andrew: You're a company man doing your company job. I get it. I get it.

Mike: Well, I mean, here's the deal. When that helmet came out, I was trying not to drink the Kool Aid on it. But over time, I'm a hundred percent drunk on the Kool Aid because it's just, there's too much data, there's too much proof, that it really is that great. And Jim Manton from ERO Sports just put out a YouTube video the other day in his ‘facts or fiction’ thing where he took the ten aero helmets head-to-head, and Rudy Project came out on the end. And basically, his quote at the end was, ‘if you can't afford to go test, just buy the Wingdream,’ because he's tested so many athletes in it out in the real world, that no matter what their position is – whether they're a pro, an age group, or what – that helmet is always testing fast. And that helmet's given the most ventilation, the best vision, all the things. So it's just that it's turning out– like how aero helmets get designed – to give a quick study here, right – it's all from the Grand Tour teams, right, like the Tour de France. So you know, whether you're making that Giro Aerohead II, that big crazy looking thing, was really designed around Remco, one rider, right. So what will happen is, those teams that have their time trial specialist, that's who works with whoever their team helmet sponsor is, and they try to design all the properties around, really, one rider. We got super lucky – maybe, I don't know if luck's the word. We just got smart. We're smarter, better at Rudy Project. The helmet we designed for our time trials just happens to work on a variety of riders. It's not just specific to say, one rider, right. You know, where a lot of those other helmets are designed to one rider, so they work amazingly perfectly on one person, but they don't translate to everybody else. Where this helmet just, for whatever reason, has been translating to everybody else really, really well. So it's tough. I mean, you know, there's starting to be more things where Wahoo now makes one of their bike computers with an aero sense, and you can, kind of, do your own little testing yourselves out in real life. So there's things out there like that. But I think for most of us age groupers, no matter which– you know, find the one that we really like the look of, that we can afford – you know, pricing's gonna be all over the place – has good ventilation, vision, you know, comfort, all the things. And I mean, they're going to be faster than this. There can be significant watt savings from one helmet to another, but for the most part, you're always going to be faster and, you know, something of that nature.

Andrew: Yeah, true. Yeah.

Mike: You know, and another – not to dovetail off this too much, but I get this question a lot, too – about, is a white helmet cooler than a black helmet?

Andrew: Yeah, good question.

Mike: And those things. And there's actually videos and testing out there, where thermo-testing was done, to find out that a black helmet is no hotter than a white helmet. Now, if you set them both in the sun and touch the top, yeah, the black helmet's going to feel hotter, right. But that heat does not translate from the external shell of a helmet into–

Andrew: To your head.

Mike: –foam inside, which means it does not affect the internal cooling of the athlete's head. Therefore, the consensus of the video in the study was: wear whatever color helmet you want. They're all the same. They're all the same temperature inside.

Andrew: I didn't have a question about that, so I'm glad you brought that up. It's funny how the trends change, like, for a long time across sports – and all sports – black shoes, black cleats, black socks, you know, those dark accent colors were trendy. And now white shoes, white– everybody's race shoes are white and not black. I remember Jan Frodeno winning Kona, and he was wearing these prototype black Asics shoes with these black Asics socks and, like, an all black kit. He looked so freaking cool. And now everybody's wearing all-white everything. I'm a black guy. I don't know. I'm attracted to the dark accent colors. And so, yeah, my race helmets are always black. And so that's good validation for me, Mike. I appreciate that one. But on that, I remember reading – again back when I was first learning about helmets as a new cyclist, 12 years ago, so that this may have changed since then – but it seemed like everybody was suggesting when you're picking a helmet that there was a trade off between how ventilated the helmet was going to be and how aero it was going to be. And so you know, you wanted it to be as aero as possible for the watt savings, but you also needed to be ventilated enough to not overheat your head on the race course. And so when you look at everybody's top-of-the-line TT helmet, some have some cooling vents, some don't have cooling vents, some have take different approaches to trying to cool your head. In the most modern day race helmets, has this been figured out where they can be both, or is there somewhat of a trade off between how aero your helmet is versus how ventilated it is? What do we need to know about choosing this for ourselves?

Mike: Yeah, that's definitely a good question. And I would say some aero helmets are cooler and vent better than others. And you can just, kind of, see in the design. And not to keep getting back to the infomercial for the Wingdream, but that's one of its things is, like– the Wingdream, because it has so much space here, once it's on your head on the sides, it really brings airflow up in here and vents. You have your cooling vent up here that you don't need to plug. But because of that, and the width of it, it really vents extremely well. And it's designed to flow out the back. Where our model previous to this, just the wing, it was a more tighter fit to your head, and that's how a lot of helmets are. And there was a magnet – and there's a magnetic removable thing there, but if you need it for airflow on the top – but it had a port out the back where the airflow would come in the vent, and then come out the port in the back. And it's still vented really well, also. But I think this new Wingdream vents a lot better just because there's more openness here – while it's on your head, on your shoulders – that airflow can get up and in, and through, and out. So I think you can kind of put on a helmet and kind of get a feel for it that way. I mean, you know, we'll be honest. I mean, yes, you're always going to trade some ventilation for speed when you're talking about an aero helmet to a road helmet like this. Like, obviously this is going to be cooler, right. It just is. But you're going to give up all the aerodynamic watt savings. So you kind of have to trade what it is you're looking for.

Andrew: And to your point earlier, like if peak performance isn't your concern – you're okay giving up 10 watts to be more comfortable and have better ventilation – there are pros that will race the World Championships in that right there. In an aero road helmet because they figured out for them, “I perform better if I have that extra ventilation. I'm okay giving up the eight watts,” or whatever it is. So yeah, it's finding what's best for you. And Mike, I appreciate your candor on that. One thing I alluded to earlier. So I don't actually use the built in visor, and that's not for– the built in visor that came with this model is very, very good. I can see through it well. I like it plenty fine. I just did testing in my stamina workouts and my race rehearsal workouts; I'm more comfortable in my sunglasses in the helmet. A little bit extra wind flow, and I, again, not Rudy Project, I've got the Roka Matadors, right. And Rudy Project has a very similar model that has just really, really good eye coverage. And so I found with that – this is my main reason for doing this – I'm a contact wearer. And so with my contacts in and the visor that came with the POC Cerebel, I don't think came down as far as the Wingdream. And so I got quite a bit of wind, crosswind, across my eyes, and so it dried my contacts out. And so if I'm using my really big lens sunglasses, that actually was blocking more winds than the built in visor. And so that's why I made that switch personally. But I've seen people debate back and forth, and I've seen some pros do reports, that for this pro they actually tested more aero with the built in visor. And for this pro they found they tested faster in their sunglasses without the built in visor. And so I'm sure it depends on the helmet model. It depends on what sunglasses you have. It depends on your position. But what do you guys find as a brand to be– do you encourage– does it matter all that much whether we use sunglasses with the helmet, or is there advantage to using the built in visor? What have you guys learned from your testing?

Mike: Yeah, so with the version previous to the Wingdream, which was called just The Wing, that helmet I used a lot, some of our pros used a lot, with just sunnies because it was the tight fit. And so the opening wasn't as big. The visor, all that stuff wasn't as big. So you could–

Andrew: And similar to mine. Very similar shape to mine.

Mike: You could put your sunnies on, and go out there, and ride as such and you'd be just fine, right. Like, it wasn't that drastic of a difference to using the visor or not visor. So I think it really depends on the helmet. Now, people with the Wingdream – this thing – the minute you take the visor off, now you're just like, you know, a big whale sucking up sea water–

Andrew: Like Darth Vader.

Mike: I mean, it's this helmet. I would say you need the visor.

Andrew: Okay.

Mike: Now, a great thing about this helmet that I've learned, too, is because there's so much space when the athlete's in there, that if they wear, say, prescription glasses, they can have their prescription glasses on under the helmet and see out of it.

Andrew: That's a real thing. Yeah, that's a real need for some folks.

Mike: So behind all the protection and all the aerodynamic features. But you can still have your sunnies on underneath the helmet if you want, because there's space. And so people with prescription eyewear have been able to wear their eyewear under there and not even have to do the contacts, or whatever. But, you know, I think it just depends on the design of the helmet. If it's a big, wide helmet like that with the visor, you're gonna want the visor. That's how it's going to perform its best. If it's more of the old school style where it's a little tighter to your head, you know, like what you have, like our old The Wing, then it's rider-dependent. Do they want sunnies or do they want the visor?

Andrew: Yeah, and it's so funny, like you held that up – and you've held it up a couple times – but you held it up in relation to that question, and immediately you can see the way that visor is the first thing breaking the wind, right. As opposed to it just being a visor that's built in to shield your eyes.You can see where form meets function. It's meant to do that. That's helpful. People can look at their own aero helmet and kind of determine, “Okay, is this just kind of built in for my eye protection, or is this, like, a leading feature of the front of this helmet?” Because there are some that belong, kind of, in both camps. So earlier you mentioned the University of Virginia, right? Does the–

Mike: Oh, Virginia Tech. Yeah, yeah. Does testing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew: They're famous for that. And a lot of us have seen– every single year, you can google and see how the Virginia Tech does testing on bike helmets to prove how safe they are. What's the difference here? Like, so obviously in their testing, they're finding there are some helmets that are safer than others. They're better at protecting your head than others. And there's plenty that have the best rating, and some have lower ratings. Like, what do we need to know here? Like, what makes one helmet better at protecting our head than another?

Mike: Well, first of all, all helmets protect our head better. And as long as they're within, you know, reasonable time. You know, like, the other day I was riding and I saw a guy literally in this, like, I don't know, $30 Schwinn helmet where all the material was cracking and peeling off of it and it was down to pretty much just foam. The helmet's probably 20 years old, and he's wearing it. And I'm like, “I don't want to tell you what to do, but that helmet doesn't look very safe. You might want to update it.” I said to him. He goes, “Really?”

Andrew: “I do this for a living, and I'm concerned about you.”

Mike: You know, I mean, obviously, and we can get into that. If you go onto the safety commission website and stuff, they'll say a helmet's lifespan is five to seven years, right. Again, getting back to what we talked about earlier, you know, with aero helmets – because you only use them so much and they're not out there – you could probably extend that even to 10 years on it or something, right. Because it's a helmet not getting used all the time. But if it's your daily-use helmet, push it more into that five years.

Andrew: It's going out into the elements, going out into the sun, like that’s what ages it? It's not just– if it's just sitting in your closet, it's not aging at all?

Mike: Correct. Yeah. It's not getting beat up as much as being out in the elements and used all the time. All helmets are safe. Obviously, yes, there's going to be these tests, and people are going to review them, and people really get hung up on MIPS, right.

Andrew: Yeah, I’ve seen that.

Mike: Like, should it be MIPS or not, right? You know, a lot of helmet manufacturers have gotten away from always using MIPS. I equate MIPS a lot of times to Kleenex. It's kind of like a brand name, and you pay to have it on there. And you've seen, like, Trek with Bontrager helmets go to their own wave cell and, you know, there's–

Andrew: Yeah, I have.

Mike: And even us at Rudy Project, and many of us that have found, going through this WG11 testing and some of these other different formats, that are just as safe, or safer, in the way they put the rotational impact stuff in there to protect you for safety. So I would say don't get hung up on the word ‘MIPS’ as that's the only safe helmet out there. I think all of the helmets have to go through a certain certification. All the helmets have to go through extensive testing. So no matter who makes the helmet, no matter what the sticker is in there, as long as it's got that safety sticker in there, the CE, the CS, it's safe. It's ready to go, and I would feel confident in it. I mean, I hate getting these emails, but I get them a lot from athletes. “Hey, thank you. Your helmet saved my life.” I mean, a lot of it is the Nytron, our aero road helmet we talked about, because a lot of these guys are racing in Crits, which we know Crits are crazy, right.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mike: A lot of my road racers that do Crit racing all the time are sending me these wicked pictures of them all like, banged up and boom. But hey, that helmet saved their life. So the main key is get your helmet on, get it buckled, get a helmet that fits and keep you safe. Because I see a lot of riders, recently too, when I'm just on a bike path, you know, so it's casual riders, they might have a helmet on their head, but the straps are dangling. Buckle the thing! And I'm like, what's the point? But whatever.

Andrew: Yeah we have a little helmet for my daughter. At the time we're recording this, she's two and a half years old. She has a little tricycle. She can freaking rip on that thing. Like, she zips around the house, she zips around the neighborhood. And, and we make her – if she's going to go outside and ride – we make her put on a helmet. So for a long time we wouldn't let her go right outside because she didn't want to put on the helmet. And she finally got convinced that the helmet is cool, and so she'll wear the helmet very willingly. But, yeah, I make sure. My wife lets me do it. I dial in that strap exactly where it needs to be, and I tighten it. I rotate it on her head, and it's tricky if she's wearing a ponytail, but without a ponytail, it fits really well. And I'm constantly watching, like, okay, is it sitting on her head correctly? But this isn't a question on our sheet, but for our people listening – or even watching, able to see you – how much room are we looking for in that strap? How tight should we dial down that BOA dial a lot of helmets have in the back to make sure it's fitting our head properly for safety?

Mike: Yeah, I mean, the BOA dial you want to get that retention strap snug. And a lot of helmets, they'll be– like, in here, there's ways you can even adjust them. You know, slide this forward or backward, based on where you need it to position on your head properly to get the retention strap in there. The chin strap, yeah, you want to get it buckled where you're comfortable. You want it tight, but not, like, so snug and tight it's choking you. I don't make mine, so much–

Andrew: You shouldn't be getting a headache by how much you've tightened it.

Mike: Yeah. And I don't get super concerned about how it flows over my ears. Some people will send me, “Hey, I can't get it to line over my ears right.” And I'm like, eh, that's personal preference and comfort a lot of times in there. I mean, I try to get it in there, but not always do I get it lined up perfectly. So I just want to get it on. I feel like as long as I get that BOA dial, and I don't feel the helmet rocking all over on my head, and it feels pretty tight and snug, then you're pretty good to go.

Andrew: Okay. When should we replace our helmets, Mike?

Mike: According to the safety commission website, it'd be every five to seven years.

Andrew: I'm out of date. I'm out of date.

Mike: That's the main range. I mean, as they say, you can get up to 10 years. Once your helmet's past 10 years old, you probably really should start thinking about replacing it. And it's tough with helmets because I have helmets like that, too, where they don't look like they've barely been worn. They look perfect.

Andrew: It looks fine. Yeah.

Mike: But then you look at it, and you think of how old it is, and you're like, “Oh, wow, maybe I should replace that.” Again, any helmet's safer than no helmet. But that's what they say. So I just kind of go off of that, and say, hey, this is what safety commission’s saying. So kind of use your own judgment within these guidelines.

Andrew: Now, I know obviously if someone is in a wreck, and their helmet is wrecked, and they're sending you an email saying like, “Hey, look at this thing, it's crazy to save my life.” Like, clearly they're going to be replacing their helmet after that. But is there anything we should be on the lookout for in terms of light cracking, or if we drop it on pavement and it looks fine, is there any concern? If you do a group ride, and you're at a red light, and somebody next to you falls over into you, and then you fall over because of it, and it just dings the concrete a little bit, but it looks fine or has a scuff – what is a red flag that, okay, this needs to be replaced or thinking about replacing versus it's going to be fine?

Mike: Yeah. I think anytime your head goes down and wacks the pavement, or the dirt, or whatever, I mean, that's probably a moment you might want to start thinking about, “Hey, maybe I should replace this thing.” Because you don't know how– and it's hard. You can't always see and tell if the integrity of the helmet's been dinged. Now if it's a pretty light fall – like in mountain biking, we go down all the time, right. And yeah, that's why they're there. And you're whacking stuff and sometimes it's a pretty– the body and the bike take more than the head. The head might do a little. Then you're probably alright. Unless you fully whack your helmet against something. So I think a lot of times, just use your own discretion. Look at it. If you see a dent in the helmet, if you see any sort of defect from that fall, that might be a flag to say, “Hey, I should do something.” And we do a three year crash replacement, so anytime something like, you know, when stuff goes down, they can go on, they can submit a warranty claim and a photo, and our warranty department's going to review that, and get back to the them, and do a special replacement on that helmet, or maybe they'll see it and say, you know what, it looks okay. But typically they'll just say, “Hey, no, let's get you a new helmet,” you know, and here we go.

Andrew: Yeah so, coming to the end of our main set here – and I'm definitely going to give you a chance to talk about Rudy Project and what separates your brand apart, and your products apart – in general, as a triathlete is looking across the market and shopping for helmets, are there brands that are just maybe inferior enough that we need a warning, or is everybody that has certain stickers on the helmet like, okay yes, this is safe enough, it's good enough, it's quality enough? What should we be looking at in the marketplace to deem a certain helmet is good enough versus okay, we should steer clear of maybe that one?

Mike: Well, that's a trick question. I don't want to speak ill on any brand or anything like that.

Andrew: Whatever you can and can't say, I'm putting on the spot.

Mike: It’s kind of like any product, right? There's higher end quality things, and to not, right. At the end of the day, you got to get something on your head and be safe. But I mean, I see it a lot when I work with collegiate athletes that aren't on scholarship, and they're just on their own dime, and they're part of a club sport, and budget is a massive thing. And they're just finding helmets off Facebook marketplace for free, or 10 bucks, or whatever, right. But they're out there racing bikes, and racing in competitive situations, and that's where I look at and go, “You should probably look at something better, like a higher end, not the $30 helmet from Costco.” So I would say to that, I mean, anytime you're diving into one of the major players in the helmet category, you're probably going to find they're all going to be safe, they're all going to be good. It's just going to be. And we all have in our lines of products, no matter who the manufacturer is, we have entry-level to best, right. The range. And so, you’re just going to find the helmet that works for you and your budget and keep yourself safe.

Andrew: Yeah so if it's one of the big, major, reputable, everybody's-heard-of-them brands, you're probably in safe hands. If it's something from the big box shop down the road, and it's an off-brand you haven't heard of in the bike space, maybe not. So that's super helpful to hear. And you agreed to come on the podcast with zero expectation of marketing Rudy Project, zero requests, zero anything. Again, I reached out to you guys, so definitely want to give you a chance to get on your soapbox and tell our athletes why their next helmet should be a Rudy Project helmet. So just what's cool about the brand? What's the vibe? Why do you believe so much in a team and your products, and why should we give Rudy Project our next helmet purchase?

Mike: I mean, the brand I love. We're still family owned. We're celebrating 40 years, so we were started 40 years ago. So Rudy Project – Rudy is his name, so he's who started the company. Now his two sons run the company, and we're based over in Italy. And so everything's made, designed, run out of Italy. So it's really cool that it still has that family feel. We haven't sold off to a big conglomerate or something like that. I was a Rudy Project athlete before I ever worked for them. So I was a coach, I was an athlete. I was like you, and I was using the products and building relationships with them long before I actually got on the payroll, let's say. Because they were products I liked from a style standpoint, from a performance standpoint, from a safety standpoint, all the things, right. So I just kind of really believed in them. And then we just keep evolving year after year, and we've just hit a home run with the Wingdream. I mean the new aero helmets, I mean, amazing. Our eyewear, you can really tell a difference. And this is something that I–

Andrew: Good eyewear, really good eyewear.

Mike: Yeah. You would learn about is that our lenses are such high quality, and when you take like the $25 stuff you can buy off of a shelf at a run store that's disposable, and then you take it against a high quality product like ours, you really start to see the difference in the clarity–

Andrew: Agreed. Totally agree.

Mike: –and then just how long the product lasts. There's lots of elements to that, where I just truly love the brand, love the product, and so working there is a lot of fun. You know, obviously I create tons of partnerships with teams like TriDot, or Team Zoot, or all these teams throughout, Wind Republic, whatever, across the board. And I love supporting the athletes. So that's a huge, huge thing to me, is I'm one of them, and I know how they think, act, and I want to show them I get out and use the products daily and interact. I always am there to support. So if an athlete or somebody has a question, has a need, I answer every single email, every phone call, every text and I have this– I never knew the rules rule labeled as this, but I listened to another podcast, and on there they were talking about the ‘sundown rule’, where they make sure before they go to bed each night, they give some sort of acknowledgment to every email that comes into their inbox. Even if it's not a proper answer, it's a “Let me get the answer. I'll get back to you. I want to let you know I at least got this.” And so I've always really tried to practice that, and I continue to practice that. Even when I travel and I'm at events, and it's 10 o' clock at night, and you're exhausted, and you want to get up for a 6am run before you have to be the expo at 9am, I still will stay up that extra hour if I need to, to make sure I go through and get back to every single person. Because I believe in taking care of the people because they're what makes me happy.

Andrew: Yep, I love it. And I can tell you this every year I think Triathlete magazine always puts out after Kona, like the Kona bike count, right? They go out on the pier and count how many of each brand of bike is out there, how many brands of each wheel is out there. If I were to do a helmet count for the TriDot staff that are actively triathletes, the number one helmet brand on our staff's head would be Rudy Project. I can think of, off the top of my head, one, two, three, four. I'm counting the people, and it'd be far and away the winner of the staff. I think I'd be the lone one with a POC Cerebel. So yeah, you guys would be winning that. So, Mike, again, thanks for coming on, and we'll have you stick on for just a second to answer an audience question on the Cool Down.

Mike: Sounds good, thanks.

Cooldown Theme

Andrew: Alright, on to the Cool Down of our show, where Mike's going to answer one of your questions. And Mike, I was able to pull a helmet one. We get questions from our viewers in a number of places. Sometimes they come in as voicemail, sometimes they come through Facebook or through an email. And this one came from an athlete named Lisa. She's in South Africa and she asked this: “I'm starting to find myself traveling more and more for races.” We talked about that a little bit in our warm up question. “Each time I pack, I wonder where is the best place to pack my bike helmet for the trip?” Mike, is there a best place? Are there any places to not pack your helmet for a trip?

Mike: So it depends on the style of helmet, right. But I think we have helmet travel cases at Rudy Project, and we designed a new one that fits the Wingdream really well. So that's how I travel. I pack it in that helmet travel case. In that case, I have room to throw my tri kit, some sunglasses. Some other stuff fit in that case, too, really well. Some transition bags that I own also have nice little spots. So if I'm using a road aero helmet that got a little built in protection spot to put the helmet, so then I'll pack it in that area. You know, I've been known to, yes, in my checked suitcase, pack it in there, roll it in a bunch of clothes and make sure it's secure in there. I think you just have to look at what style of helmet it is. If it's these big aero helmets, and the ear flaps and the side pieces, those you have to be really a lot more cautious of than your road style helmet, that might fit easier into a backpack or somewhere else. But typically get a helmet travel case and just make it as part of your carry on luggage.

Andrew: Yeah. And that's what I do, as well. I have a case for mine, and so it just gets clipped onto my backpack that I'm wearing through the airport. It just stays with me all the way through the airport. But I loved this question, and I pulled it for this episode because I have always wondered – like when I'm packing my bike, I could conceivably, amongst some other things, put this helmet case inside of my bike case, and just let it go through that. I didn't know if the plane pressurization and up and down – I didn't know if that would damage a helmet, have any pressure impacts on a helmet. So it would be totally safe anywhere, you know, just–

Mike: Yeah, depending on the bike travel case you use. And I have packed helmets – I mean, I use Bike Box Alan, which is a big hard case, and I have packed a helmet in there. And a lot of athletes do. Most athletes I know, because they're cramming a lot of stuff into that because they're really condensing and figuring out how to take their luggage. And pros do this all the time. Now, the reason why I don't put extra stuff in my bike travel case is because TSA, right. They're going to open that case, and they're going to go through. And at my own hometown airport here in Minneapolis, TSA knows me, so I walk in there with them, we do it together. They see me so much. And I've learned from them, that if you keep your bike box simple to just the bike and the wheels and not a bunch of extra traffic–

Andrew: They're just going to open it and close it.

Mike: –very little will they dig through there and take apart stuff. And they'll keep your bike secure how you pack it. And they'll just open it, look at it, close it, send it on its way. But if you pack all this extra stuff in there–

Andrew: They gotta look through it.

Mike: –then they might have to start going through it. Your bike might not get secured back in the case as well. So that's one of my reasons. Now, if you can do your helmet in the case where it's very seen and maybe up by the handlebars, let's say there's a slot there, I think that'd be fine. But that's one of my main reasons why I don't put stuff in my bike travel case.

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