Tackling TriDot Workouts: Mav Shuttles, Fartleks, Threshold Repeats, Intervals, Decreasing Intervals, and Cruise Intervals

TriDot Podcast Episode 314

Tackling TriDot Workouts: MAV Shuttles, Fartleks, Threshold Repeats, Intervals, Decreasing Intervals, and Cruise Intervals

Vanessa Ronksley: Hello everyone and welcome back to our all of our regular listeners. And for those of you who are new, we are so happy that you are here. I'm Vanessa, your average triathlete with elite level enthusiasm. And today I'm joined by coach Ryan Tibball. Ryan is a rock star coach and y'all can trust the statement because he is my very own coach and, and I have firsthandedly experienced his expertise and have actually achieved things that I never thought possible. He has been coaching with TriDot for over 10 years and he's also on the business coaching team at TriDot. Now Ryan is here to help me dig into some of the staple run workouts that live in the TriDot ecosystem. And for each one we're going to be looking at the interval pattern the system stresses and tips to nail it. If you're a TriDot user or not, by the end of this podcast you will have ideas for different run sessions and how to crush them. As usual, we'll start things off with the warm up question, head into the main set and wind things down with the cool down where I will ask Ryan to answer one question from our audience. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.

Announcer: This is the TriDot podcast, the triathlon show that brings you world class coaching with every conversation. Let's get started with today's warm up.

Warm Up

Vanessa Ronksley: Welcome to the show, Ryan. Always a pleasure to have you on the pod. And the warmth question that I'm throwing at you is what is your all time favorite run workout, the one that, that you know, puts a smile on your face and that you get excited about when it pops onto your calendar.

Ryan Tibball: Well, first off, thank you Vanessa for, for the warm introduction. I'm excited back to be back here on, on the podcast. And you know what, to answer that question, you know it. I think the one that immediately comes to mind is, is the Decreasing Intervals and, and, and the reason why I like those is it, it starts off with that bigger interval and then it is a pretty minimal rest and at the same time the future intervals that go further along, they become half, they get cut in half and it's like, wow, this is great. This is cut in half. And yet you still find yourself digging just as hard in those intervals. In some sense it's kind of a way almost imitates even race day in a sense of running through an aid station. You're decreasing your intervals maybe through that and, and you have a very short rest period. So I really, really like those when I see them pop up and, and you know it. They're just, they're just a lot of fun to me. And then obviously get to run the rest out in zone two, so even better.

Vanessa Ronksley: I knew you were going to say that one because I know that's your favorite and I know you always get excited to put that one on my calendar when I request some kind of a run. So I know that's your favorite. And I honestly, I do think that all of the run workouts are your favorite because you like running so much.

Ryan Tibball: A little bit. Just a little bit.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah. So running is not my favorite. I do love it, but it's not my favorite. But in terms of the run workouts, I have to say I am a glutton for punishment. So I like Threshold Intervals. I love long, hard, intense intervals. So that is my favorite. The longer the better. I like to get my heart rate up sky high. I like to try and keep appropriate form when I'm revving the engine at a high capacity. So that one is my favorite. I know it doesn't. Probably doesn't top the list for most people, but yeah, yeah, that's what it is for me. So we are super pumped to hear what our audience has to say. So please find us on YouTube or Spotify in the community TriDot Community in circle, anywhere that you want to interact with us. Please let us know what is your favorite run workout to do. We are super pumped to hear what you have to say. Um, so let's hear it. Let's go.

Main Set:

Vanessa Ronksley: Mav Shuttles, Fartlek, Threshold Repeats, Intervals, Decreasing Intervals and Cruise Intervals. These are the run workouts that we are going to dissect today to bring you our audience, the big old why. I don't know about you, but when I understand the reasoning behind a workout, there is greater intention which is going to ultimately lead to better execution and bigger progress. So for those of you who are watching on YouTube, we will be showing you examples of workouts that appear in a triathletes calendar. But please know that every person's workout is going to look different in terms of how long and how many efforts are prescribed, because this is part of how TriDot ensures that people with different abilities are prescribed different sessions for them to be successful and more importantly to reduce their risk of injury. So just keep that in mind. When you see a picture of the workout, it might look different than what you have on your calendar. But that's the beauty of TriDot. It's we personalize everybody's training to enhance their experience and allow them to progress at the rate that they're supposed to progress at. So Ryan, here we have a workout that feels like part two track session, part playground game. It's so much fun. It's super fun. Do you know which one I'm talking about?

Ryan Tibball: I think MAV shuttles.

Vanessa Ronksley: Absolutely. Yes, it is MAV Shuttles. It's kind of like a playground. Like you have to find a special place to go to do it. It's high intensity, it's fun. There's ups, there's downs, it's all kinds of things. So um, please tell us, what is the interval pattern for MAV Shuttles and what system of the body is this workout supposed to stress?

Ryan Tibball: All right, yes, I, I love this. Um, and you know, before I get into the full description of that interval pattern and what we're trying to stress here, let me emphasize guys, that the, the really big important thing here when it comes to running and getting ready for any of your runs is, is emphasizing the proper warmup and the dynamic mobility. And the great thing about the TriDot and RunDot platform is the fact that they're actually your, they're in the warmup. You click that warmup. There are very specific dynamic mobility and running drills that are really great to developing and, and, and actually activating those muscles and, and getting that, developing that proprioception and, and getting things ready and revved and, and pumped and, and so you can be successful in, in your run workouts. Um, the, again the, with that technique work that you do in that that warmup will translate directly into your runs every single time. And now, and, and, and as you know, Vanessa said here too is, is that your workouts are personalized. So meaning depending upon your fitness, your progression, the optimization, again, your workout's going to be personalized from the get go. And so you know, diving into this MAV Shuttles to begin with, the number of shuttles, the number of intervals in any other type of run workout is, could be fully dependent upon where you're at in your running journey, your triathlon journey. So now specifically getting into MAV Shuttles, the, the interval pattern is very, very short and it's very high intensity. And when I say high intensity specifically I'm talking zone six. And, and, and these zone six efforts are followed by a very short recovery. So 20 seconds of work followed by 20 seconds of recovery. And typically you'll see do six or seven of those in a row right off the bat. Now everybody, like I said, is different. So you might have one set of six to seven intervals or you might have three it just depends where you're at. And so you know, the whole goal in the, in these MAV Shuttles. And by the way, and for those that don't know what MAV Shuttle stands for is Maximum Aerobic Velocity.

Vanessa Ronksley: I was hoping you were going to put that in there.

Ryan Tibball: Yes, of course. You know, MAV shuttles have multiple effects on the body at the high level. MAV shuttles help build and recruit those fast twitch muscles and power. In other words, it can really touch on those nerves, you could say. And because of that, it has a huge neurological and muscular impact from firing off those muscles fast. So I, I digress. Remember what I said about that importance of a, an important warmup, guys, this is the one. You better do it. You better get those, those, those warmups in and, and have it, you know, again, your body primed and ready because you don't want to, you know, I don't want to pull a hammy or anything so that we don't want that for you now, you know, again, get those warmups in, get those, get that done appropriately so you're ready to fire off as quick as you fan as you can. And you're actually going to. And I might talk about this in a little bit, but know, we, we'll just leave it right there.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay. Okay. That's awesome. Thank you very much for sharing that with us. Now I think we, we love to hand out tips on this podcast because we are hoping to improve everyone's execution and elevate their performance regardless of, of where they're coming from. So hit us with some Tibball’s tips for MAV shuttles.

Ryan Tibball: That's a new one. I like it. I might have to take that. Thank you.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah.

Ryan Tibball: Typically I like to do these in a repeatable area. I know you mentioned something about that at the very start. And I have done this in various places where, whether I have a, there's a little section of street near my neighborhood that I know I have a starting point and end point. I know exactly where those should be in 20 seconds. So it kind of gives me a point of reference and I'm going, all right, hammer away. Get to that point. And you know you're just about done or done once you hit it. I've done them in parking lots, in my church parking lot. I've done them. So it's, it's one of those places you kind of pick a place and stick to it so that way you can sit there and repeat it back and forth. That's a great tip in doing these and Being able to repeat these and be consistent and that's probably the more important thing. So, you know, one thing, another tip I'd like to point out about these is that it's very important that in the first couple of shuttles don't try to blast off like a rocket. You know, again, you are about to fire off so heavy and hard. But you gotta be careful here guys. You want, you want to make sure you're primed and ready. So yeah, that warmup. But yeah, getting into the intervals is another part of it. So show some restraint. You know, go at it with that 90% ish effort and remember, you're trying to fire off those muscles. You don't want to pull anything. Like I mentioned, a couple of other tips I say I'd like to mention is your Garmin or any other compatible device try to. We'll push this workout over and so it's going to signal you. At least I know my Garmin will. It'll start to do a little countdown. And the cool part about that is it's soon as that countdown starts, I start revving the engine and start rolling into that next MAV shuttle. I mean everybody wants to score a hundred right on their TrainX. So this is the way to do it guys. And, and lastly and, and this comes down to technique guys. Increase that cadence. Do not over stride. Don't be trying to stride in order to go faster. No, increase the cadence and use your body and lean forward as much as you can to keep that cadence rolling very, very quickly. The goal isn't try to be lengthening out any strides here guys. It is using your body in order to fall and move forward and keep the feet moving and get that speed from that. So body awareness, body position is so, so important. Lastly, the recovery. Don't come to an abrupt stop. Don't do that. Roll into a slow jog and then you might even be able to roll into maybe a five second walk and then you're ready to rev it back up. So focus on your breathing. Maybe if you have a bottle with you, grab it for a quick sip. But do those things and get ready for that next shuttle to take off.

Vanessa Ronksley: Well, that was awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of those amazing little tips. Th this, this is something that is amazing about Ryan is he has so many different tips because he's so experienced in all of these sessions but also as a, a run coach as well. So thank you for sharing that with us. Really appreciate it. Now MAV shuttles are sharp, they're technical, they have short bursts. You mentioned quick turnover, not over striding. And that often requires a lot of focus. So next up is the Fartlek. This one here is, is a little bit different. It's about rhythm shifts, it's about speed and short recoveries that definitely keep you honest. So tell us about this workout, Ryan. What pattern does an athlete follow for this one and why.

Ryan Tibball: That pattern is. It's obviously a little bit longer. So typically a, a Fartlek is anywhere from about three to four minutes in, in duration. Um, and, and it does have a focus, a very specific focus in, in the particular zone that you're trying to train in and I'll talk about that in just a moment. But typically three to four minutes in duration with a 60 second jog. And, and that's an active jog. You're trying to be active there and keep that jog going. Um, you know, maybe initially on, you know, you might consider a brisk walk in between for that 60 second, but as you get stronger in, in your aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity develops, you can be able to start really jogging and, and intentionally jogging in between for that 60 seconds in between each one of those intervals. So every athlete, again like I mentioned, may have three, may have four, may have five, may have eight or nine. I've seen upwards of, you know, depending upon the athlete. So that, that's a per typical interval pattern that's set up for that.

Vanessa Ronksley: That is awesome. Thank you very much for sharing that. I, I know that this type of workout has been described as one that you can easily make more fun if you do it with friends. Matt Sommer has talked about this on the podcast before and how to, how to make your training more fun. And one of the, the sessions that he talked about was actually doing the Fartleks and, and kind of changing it into a catch me if you can type situation, which I really, really like for this workout. So if you're looking for something to increase the fun in your training, this style of workout is really good for, for trying to in infuse a little bit of fun and maybe do it with your friends. Now, in terms of getting the most value out of the Fartlek session, what tips do you have for athletes if they're going to complete something like this?

Ryan Tibball: The one of my bigger tips is do this on an open road to add variety. You know, you might have some points, you know, as you're, you're running down the road, you say, you know, maybe that light pole down the way or that light at the corner or whatever it is maybe approximately three to four minutes away. Again, use that and it can make a game of it like I, you know, like you mentioned earlier with Matt and you know, but focus on making that last Fartlek as strong as your first one. So in other words, don't go out too fast on the first one or two because again, you might have again, four, five, six, nine intervals. And the goal here is not to fade in those back ends, but again, not to overcook the front end because that can tell, tell a story for you. If you know, you fade in those last few. What did you do in the front couple that may have turned the table for you? And something I do want to mention here is that too, is that with that Fartlek you are focusing on that zone four, that threshold zone that really one of the most productive zones that you can work on. And again, this is your chance for your body to both work in that anaerobic system and recover back in that 60 seconds as quickly as possible, giving your body that opportunity to try to clear that lactic acid as quickly as possible. Right. And, and you know, again, it's also fair to say that this is gonna definitely test your, your mental systems in a, in a way as well as you get further and deeper into some of those Fartleks that you're doing. So a lot of, a lot of fun stuff with Fartleks. I agree these are short, they're sweet, they're. But the, the, the rest is minimal. And again, it teaches you and, and gives you an idea. Learning your own body and how you recover quicker or not yet, but know that you will get there.

Vanessa Ronksley: You know, something that you said that really, really resonates with me and I think is, is a learning tip for everybody is that we often go out too hard at the beginning of training sessions and in particular in race situations. And so you, you had mentioned that this is a testing the mental aspect of your training and your racing as well. And, and that is how do you hold back just a wee bit on those beginning sets? Because we have to do that in a race as well, especially when we're all amped up and have adrenaline flowing and we're excited. Like we have to be able to contain that and hold back a little bit. Because when we hold back a little bit, we're probably in a race situation anyways. We're probably going to put out, you know, the same effort at zone four, if not greater, just because of all that extra adrenaline. So I like looking at this type of workout in that, in that sense as well. Like, you've got to hold back. You have to be patient. You have to be so patient. And then at the end, when you get to that seventh, eighth, or maybe it's four, five, six or seven, eight, ninth set, then you'll be grateful that you did hold back a little bit. Um, so, yeah, I really appreciate those tips.

Vanessa Ronksley: Um, now, Fartleks, they're a little bit more spontaneous, they're a little bit more playful. Um, but when you stretch those reps out and hold the effort longer, we're moving into the threshold repeats, which is my favorite workout. Um, and, and I think that we can call this the land of comfortably hard. Um, I think that these workouts have the biggest VAR variation amongst athletes in terms of the time and number of repeats, because that depends on where an athlete is in their training cycle, their age, their ability. Um, so for those of you who are watching this and you're going to see one of the example workouts pop up on the screen, please know that not all Threshold Repeat sessions will look like this in terms of the duration and number of efforts that are prescribed. Um, so as an athlete that has used this platform for years, I can assure you that when you see threshold repeats on your calendar, it's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get. And that is just, that's like, for me. And, and I'm the same athlete. So regardless, when it's titled Threshold repeats, you don't know what's coming. Um, so it really does have a lot of variation when you even compare from yourself to another athlete. So keeping that in mind, Coach Ryan, what is the basic pattern for threshold repeats and what is the purpose here in terms of the physiological response we are hoping for?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, this, you know, arguably is like almost the bread and butter of, of runs, you know, really is. And, and, and these intervals are definitely longer than Fartleks. Typically depending upon the athlete, right? It, it, it could be six, seven, eight or nine minutes long. And, and that's a, that's a whole box of chocolates. Like you mentioned. It's like, oh, I see threshold intervals on my calendar and you click on it, it's like, oh boy, here we go. Three by nine today. And you know, the, these again, the, you know, again, these are longer intervals and you're going to have about a 2, 3, 2 to 3 minute recovery in between each one of those at a slow jogger Z2, zone two. Right. And don't keep in mind you're not gonna fully recover. Right. But it's definitely going to test your, test your grit, test your, your ability. And also gives you and I, we haven't talked even about this, but you know, fueling strategy, it's another way to incorporate that into these intervals where, you know, maybe, you know, again, you can almost treat it like you're racing. You know, you see a aid station every eight minutes and you have eight minute intervals. This is perfect. You, you hit that water bottle at eight minutes, maybe you fuel every 15 to 20 minutes. You can hit a gel in between two or three intervals. So there's a lot of fun things that you can do within these workouts to incorporate into your training to translate to race day. So these threshold repeats are directly targeting that, that lactic threshold. And so again, that's like raising your tent pole. You think about that, your functional threshold. You're trying to raise your tent pole with these kinds of workouts and you're putting yourself under that duration and stress for a little bit longer than doing a Fartlek. Right. And it's very important to build this zone because as you're building your zone four and it's getting stronger and you're tolerating, you're tolerating that time on feet six, seven, eight, nine minutes longer, you're getting stronger, you're building that endurance that you need when it comes down to racing. So again, such a, such an impactful kind of workout. Now I'll throw in some practical tips now for executing this. And then again, as you are building your threshold durations, you are also building that mental toughness that, you know, Vanessa just mentioned a second ago, that mental toughness, it's great to practice it because if you practice it now in training, it's going to go and translate directly into race day when it's time. Right? So you are about at 80 to 90% of your max heart rate during these intervals. It climbs into there. And yes, it's, it gets difficult on those last couple of minutes or minute or three minutes, it doesn't matter. But that's your opportunity to get the best out of that particular interval when you're doing a threshold interval. So, you know, again, use these as building blocks for race day.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, so these are the race day efforts then, like you've described. Now I have a question about the difference between the recovery period in a fartlek versus the recovery period in a threshold repeat. So what's the difference between those two, are there differences? Are, are they different paces, are there, are there different benefits for the system based. Because you said that they're longer for threshold repeat. So is there a difference in how that affects the, the body compared to a fart leg?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, obviously with Fartleks you're not going to get that full, you know, recovery and, and so you're going to be very limited in, in that time to before you start your next interval, it's 60 seconds in a fartlek versus a threshold interval, you typically just a little bit longer. Yes, the interval is longer too. But again our goal here in the end is when you're doing these intervals here is that you're successful for each and every single one of them. So giving you that two to three minutes is that opportunity not, not to just, oh, just let that, that recovery willy nilly go away, but rather take advantage of it, focus on your breathing, focus on fueling hydration and you have that opportunity to do that. So that way your next interval is successful. So that's a really important factor.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, awesome. Now we've covered a few of the different types of workouts so far. We've covered MAV shuttles, we've covered the Fartleks and the threshold repeats. Now I'm, I'm just curious, is there any benefit to doing any of these? All three? Maybe one of the three on the track, on the road or on the treadmill. Like what would your recommendation be for where we execute these different types of sessions?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, a lot. You know, many of these can be done on a track. I mean from as standpoint of maybe it's a softer surface too and there is some benefit, you know, with a typical track you get that little bit of positive ground reaction force out of that track and it's repeatable. So it's controlled area in many ways. So you have options in pretty much most of your run workouts. In TriDot you have options to go do these things at a track. And measurable, meaning you can do 800 meters or 1200 meters and accomplish the same purpose as long as you're hitting those paces. Right. You know, not to say that you should do all your workouts on a track. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that it is important to be pounding the pavement because last time I checked I haven't run into a single triathlon that happened at a track. So, you know, good to get that, that, you know, again you want to get your muscles acclimated and adapted to doing road work too. So you know again, you always have options there and then versus a treadmill. Hey, treadmills are great too. It is very forgiving, much like a track and even more forgiving to some ends too. So you know again when you know maybe outdoors is not conducive for running outdoors, optionally. You got it. You do have the indoor treadmill to work on and keep in mind environment normalization. So you know again all your workouts, make sure you choose that right tab on your workouts, indoor, outdoor and the time, adjust the time so that way again temperature, humidity and elevation are taken into account for your zones that you're supposed to be working.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, that's an excellent point. Something to remind all athletes to do who are us utilizing the TriDot platform is to make sure that you update those metrics. Cuz it really affects your pacing depending on the conditions outside or if you're doing it inside. Now in terms of doing, I have another question. I just have so many questions about the MAV shuttles and or possibly even the fartleks on the treadmill. I know for me when it's like there is any evidence of unstable places to put my feet on the ground due to snow or ice or even I'm not that bad in the rain. I mean I'm not a baby so I'll go running in the rain. But if there's snow or ice, I am not setting foot outside. So if I'm on the treadmill, how do you suggest working in those recovery periods for MAV shuttles and then for Fartleks? I'm just curious if there's a difference between those two.

Ryan Tibball: Oh, well, meaning you, you, you got. Yeah, that's a tough one. But I know, you know, I, I think you know, I mentioned earlier and I, I have to, you know, make sure I repeat it again. But you know, MAV shuttles, you try to avoid the abrupt stopped, you know, stopping because you got 20 seconds. And so of course on a treadmill you're kind of slave to the treadmill. It's like by the time you slow it down, it's time to start the next repeat. And so it makes it really, really hard. Um, if you're lucky enough, you have two treadmills right next to each other. You could use the other one to go recover on real quick and as you keep the other speed. But I have done MAV shuttles on treadmills and I, I have just literally straddled the belt and just was taking Big deep breaths and you know, and I just hop back on and that's, that's probably your best option. You know, on a treadmill as far as Fartleks go. I mean you have time to down, you know, downshift essentially the treadmill into a more comfortable jog that you should be in. During that 60 seconds, it should be enough and then you can ramp it back up appropriately. You've got time to do that, you know, when you're doing Fartleks or even any other intervals for that matter.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, that is awesome. I really, really like hearing you say that because it's exactly what I do. So hopefully that's helpful for all the other people out there. Now we're going to be moving into intervals. That's the next one that we're going to be talking about. So for intervals. I know that these are really important in a training cycle and I know in TriDot in particular, they show up at a very particular time throughout the training cycle. So can you explain to us here what the purpose is of this interval pattern and, and why, why it is so important for us to be able to do this type of workout?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, this is, you know, I, I had a, when you first asked, asked the question about what is my favorite workout, it was a toss up, you know, between those decreasing, you know, intervals and intervals here that we're talking about. Just these, these are workouts. Intervals are labeled straight up inter intervals.

Vanessa Ronksley: Right.

Ryan Tibball: And the reason why I like Intervals 1, it's actually working in a bigger zone than most of your other run workouts with the exception of MAV shuttles. It's working in zone number five, guys, your VO2 max zone. And, and so when you see these come about, yes, they are timed appropriately. They're timed because when you see those coming, you know, you got a time trial coming next week.

Vanessa Ronksley: Right.

Ryan Tibball: And what a great way and great optimization that tried out and run out do is they're, they're opt, it's optimizing you and stimulating, getting that stimulus that you need and prepped for next week and, and also giving not only that, but that mental confidence, oh, wait a minute, I can run faster. Yes, you can. And so intervals are typically 4 or 5 minutes in duration and, or can be done at the track 800 to 1200 meters sometimes. You'll see, you'll see that in your workout. The other cool part about it is maybe, maybe this is why it's my favorite is I got four minutes to rest in between each one, each effort. I don't know, but you know, you get a large amount of rest here, guys, and it's needed. And so you're really, don't just don't stop and sit down and wait for that next one to come about. No, be actively walking and breathing and perhaps even focusing on hydration, fueling and if you need it, and get yourself mentally prepared to knock out another Zone 5 effort. Because Zone 5, guys, really uncomfortable, really uncomfortable. And, and again, it, it, but it stresses on that anaerobic system and it's really, you know, again, you, you know, I, I, this is my bad joke and I have to say it, guys. You know, take it or leave it, but you gotta listen to it. Um, you know, your VO2 max zone, you know, it's, it's often described as you're genetically limited. Right. And, and I'll be honest, most of us don't even reach our genetic potential in our VO2 max zone. So keep trying to go for it. And, and, and you know, lastly, just choose your parents wisely when it comes to your VO2 max zone. There it is. I'm done.

Vanessa Ronksley: I'm done. Well, I, I can tell you like, those intervals, these are the ones where you're living like right under the red line. You're still steady and somewhat controlled. But I think that you, something that you said is that you have to be mentally tough to execute these intervals. Um, and, and I think that it's, you know, really intense. But then you do get that break, you do get that rest where you can walk or do whatever you need to do to recover. Um, and, and these are like, you know, they get your engine revving, they're brutally effective. Um, and, and they are that indication, as you said, that your time trial is coming.

Ryan Tibball: Your time trial's coming. Yeah. And, and, and I will add, you know, again, in order to recognize this zone two. Another thing this zone five again is about. You can't talk, you don't want to talk. You're really putting it down, you're putting the hammer down. And it is like you said, very focused, very focused on your form, your technique and obviously your grit into that. And usually you'll find yourself maybe in that last minute of that four minute interval, feeling like, okay, this is where it's earned, this is where you do it. Now it's happening on race day. You'll do it there.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's awesome. So just a quick question about the intervals. What's the most common pacing mistake that athletes make for this interval workout?

Ryan Tibball: Overshooting in that first one, you know, you might go out and MAV shuttle pace on accident just because you're so amped up and ready to go and you have to, to, you know, really, you know, hold yourself back a little bit, right? You, you want these to be really even because you're going to have a lot of even. You're going to have a lot of rest in between each one, but you want to be careful not to overshoot it here, guys. And, and, but also on top of that, just being confident that you can do it. Right? And, and that's the other part of this, is developing, this is an opportunity to develop that mental fortitude, that grace, grit, that confidence in, in those last couple of minutes of each one of those big intervals like this. And, and this, this can translate very well when you're going out and racing in your 5K, doing your assessment as it's coming, or, you know, go, go to race your 5k again. These are just so, so impactful. So don't skip them.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, right. That, this is definitely a workout that I will never skip because I love, I love that intensity factor. I'm sure a lot of the listeners would not be surprised to hear me say that. But I, I'm also curious about this. Now, this might apply to threshold repeats and intervals. Maybe it applies to all of them. But is, is there a way to help athletes find this, this pacing, whether it's zone four or zone five, without obsessing over their watch?

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, you know, and I, and I know watches, you know, sometimes I feel like I want to tell my watch to shut up, Garmin, you know, kind of thing. But, you know, you can go by RPE. You really can. And it's always, and I say this often, it's good to know, you know, your RPE and being able to recognize your RPE versus what your watch is telling you and as you learn, because it helps you learn your body. And, and so in other words, you know, an RP for a threshold interval could be about a 7 or 8 on a scale of 10. And, you know, for intervals themselves, it's, it's, you know, eight, nine, it's a lot higher. So, you know, RPE can be a good barometer of things in case you just, maybe you forgot your watch, maybe your watch died. I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I've heard that from my athletes. It's like, hey, coach, sorry my watch died, but I did it. I was like, I trust you. I know you did. So, you know, again, it's one of those things even, hey, you know what? By the way, your systems could die in a race, too. So what are you going to do there? So, you know, again, it is sometimes a good not to even look at your watch. But as you learn yourself and stuff, RPE is a useful tool to again, equate it to what's happening on your pacing, your power output, or whatever it is that you're training at.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, I, I love that you brought up RPE, because I think that it can even shift. Like your, your rate of perceived effort can shift depending on how much you improve and how your physiological system responds to the training that you're putting onto it. Because I, I used to remember when I first started running, I used to think like my, my RPE was. I felt like I was dying in threshold repeats. I was like, pushing myself and it felt extremely uncomfortable and I didn't like it. And I was like, well, that's zone four for me. But now that I've had a lot more experience in the mental aspect of the training and, and that I know that when I felt like I was dying in zone four, that wasn't even close to my limit. Now I know that that feeling I have to chase is in zone five. And so I think that, like, in terms of what you think you're capable of, that might shift a little bit. I don't know. Has that ever happened to you?

Ryan Tibball: Absolutely. And, and it could shift for many reasons. Right. Um, you know, it could shift because maybe your sleep has been poor, you know, your nutrition's been poor, et cetera. That, you know, again, if you're not fueled up right, to begin with, I mean, things can feel harder. There's no question about that. Hydration. Right. That's a huge factor. And, and so RPEs are, you know, again, with a grain of salt, rate of perceived exertion. It, it. There, it's, it's a helpful tool. It's also, again, you know, making sure that your RP does match up with, you know, how your watch is. What is your watch telling you? You know, so be. Pay attention to it.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree on that. So these, these intervals, the ones that we were just talking about, they have given us these sharp, somewhat targeted efforts. Um, but some workouts flip the script a little bit. Um, and, and we're going to be talking about your favorite workout here. Uh, tell us, tell us about the magic of decreasing intervals and, and how you're asked to finish shorter efforts the deeper that you get into the session.

Ryan Tibball: Yeah. Great, great question. I. And you know, yes, they are my favorite, as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, you know, because the length of intervals literally decreases as the workout goes on and they decrease and cut in half. And for whatever reason, I kind of like that piece of it. But you know, for example, again, your first couple, or maybe just depends again on your optimization, your personalized programming, you might only have one six minute interval at the front end, or it, you might have two, or you might have three. And then just know that your future ones are going to get cut in half down to three minutes and then your future ones after that are going to cut down to 90 seconds. So, but you know again, in these, that you, if you have a six minute interval in duration followed by an extreme, you do follow that with an extremely slow jog to recover in between each interval. This is in many ways it's very similar to racing in some instances when you're seeing the aid stations, right? And then the next intervals, again we come into the next set, could be three minutes in duration with the same amount of recovery, 60 seconds. And so now your work period has gotten shorter, but yet your, your rest period has stayed the same. Right? And then you go into another set that has 90 seconds of work, but still 60 seconds of recovery between. Between each interval. Now, a common mistake I do see is when athletes like decide to blow up that 90 second intervals and they end up in a much bigger zone than they belong in. So you have to, as a coach, it begs the question, did you, did you sandbag that first six minute, those other six minute intervals? Did you do something wrong there? It's a learning, guys. It's not. We're not. Perfection is never needed. But learn from that and go, well, I had too much in the tank on those 90 seconds. Yeah. So that just gives you an idea that maybe you can push harder in those first six minutes. Right. So, yeah, that's, that's probably one of the best training tips I can mention regarding these is like, you know what, your last intervals should be as strong, but that they're not supposed to necessarily be stronger. So you have to question, did I go hard enough in the beginning?

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, so this is something that I really struggle with actually is I like, I'm that athlete who likes to speed up the shorter the intervals get. Because I'm like, hey, it's only 90 seconds. Anyone could do that for 90 seconds. Is there a disadvantage to doing that? Like, what, what's the harm in getting faster as those intervals get shorter?

Ryan Tibball: Well, good question. I love this one because we're going to go into training stress, right? You know, and you're training, normalizing your training load and, and being able to see that NTS that everybody sees, like why is my NTS is going so much higher than what was prescribed and how does that affect things later on? It's that residual stress that you can end up starting to accumulate and you may not want because you know what, what's happening the next day? I mean you, you, you could end up with, you know, hard bike and you're wondering why your legs are so fried. It's be to going cause you cooked yourself on the decreasing intervals the day before. He's like, I felt really strong. I did these last three or four repeats at 90 seconds, but I went into zone five. It has a residual effect guys. So, and again then you turn around and your future workouts might suffer from it. So that's why don't do that.

Vanessa Ronksley: I know, I, I know it's just so hard to hold back, but I think in this kind of a situation it's really hard to stop once you get started. So I think the key is to not get to that point where you're going too fast at the end and you have to ask yourself consciously what will future me like better? Will future me like the satisfaction of knowing that I got faster? Like no one cares, no one, no one knows that you got faster as you went on. But the next day or when future me is doing that bike workout the next day, future me might not like the outcome of not being able to push as hard on the bike. Oh, you're always so right and full of wisdom. Oh my goodness. Okay, so how, how do you coach athletes to execute this session then so that the benefit is, is truly maximized?

Ryan Tibball: You know, set that mental attitude right to begin with. And, and, and this is maybe why I do like these so much. It's like I know that my first six minute intervals need to be strong, really strong and you know, but disciplined in staying in my zone four where I belong, right? And, and if I am, you know what if I finish those last 90 seconds and I'm just to strong, that does huge confidence boost guys. And, and, and that's what I like about it is that you know, again, if I went really strong at the first ones and I was just as strong on the back end but not overly shooting it, you know, I've done what I needed to do today. Your time will come to run at those harder intervals in those zone in Those intervals that are zone five, don't worry about that. So just focus on what's at hand, have fun with those first six minutes and make those your bigger focus and then, you know, again, the rest will follow.

Vanessa Ronksley: Well, yeah, I think the thing that I love the most that you said about that right there is, is having the intention before you start. So knowing that it is easier potentially to go faster at the end than it is at the beginning and, and so to be prepared for that and to practice what you're going to implement into that session, I think that's so valuable. And I think that anytime we approach any session with an intention, it makes it that much easier to execute, execute with greater, I don't want to say perfection, but to get those higher train X scores, you know, because when we do, we know that when we adhere to our training program that's prescribed to us, the outcome is in our best interest. You know, like, we don't want to overdo those sessions because that's not in our best interest for whatever reason, whether it's leading yourself down the road to injury or, you know, not being able to execute your future sessions and getting the maximum training benefit out of the next couple of days. So I think it's really important to be mindful about that. So thank you so much for that reminder. I, I know that these decreasing intervals definitely test you in an interesting way that we've described whether it's physiological or whether it's mental. And, and that's comes from the patience and the mindset that you have to have to go into those. Now, cruise intervals, on the other hand, these ones test your ability to stay steady and they're a little bit sneaky because each rep can feel manageable. But by the end, you've built up this mountain of threshold work. So, Ryan, talk to us about what our cruise intervals and why we do them.

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, these are fun. I mean, I feel like I say grit building for all of them, but gosh, running is grit building. Yes. I mean, we're here talking about all these intervals. I mean, we are speaking on the high end of some of our workout run workouts right today, but cruise intervals are going to be, you know, longer than Fartleks, of course, but slightly and, and typically slightly shorter than most threshold repeats that you'll see. But they usually are right around that six minute duration. Now, most of your threshold repeats are most of them around 7, 8, 9. I did mention 6. Occasionally they are there, but specifically on cruise intervals, they're about six minutes and so the. But they're also followed by a very short rest at 60 seconds. And that rest is meant to be done at a very slow jog. It is there to, essentially, I like to think it's there for, like, kind of like timing aid stations too. Again, I go back to race day. It's like you're, you're going through an aid station, you might be through a slow jog or a really fast, brisk walk, and you're preparing for that next interval to make it a quality interval. So not only you, you physically preparing by having, you know, more hydration, fueling, you're breathing and, and, and really trying to get that CO2 back out of you and, and, and trying to let that body process that, that lactication acid too, and getting you prepped and ready to hammer out that next cruise interval. And again, I like to say, envision yourself on race day. What would you be doing? And, and, and this, these kind of serve in that way in, in many aspects.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay. Okay. So how short should these recoveries actually feel? Like that. You said they're short, but how, how should they feel?

Ryan Tibball: They do feel short. They really do. You know, as your fitness continues to improve, you know, your aerobic fitness and your anaerobic fitness continue to improve, and your body's able to process that lactic acid quicker and you become more, more fit. Right. And, and stuff, they should start to feel better.

Vanessa Ronksley: Better.

Ryan Tibball: And, and I think in the end, consistency is king. And, and if you're consistently hitting your sessions and, I mean, there's so many other things we can talk about that helps with being consistent, of course, recovery, nutrition, all the other things that a coach can definitely help you out with, you know, so, yeah, it, you know, I can't say enough about these, but, you know, the fact is, is that that rest period is, it's gonna go by quick, guys, and, and you need to maximize your best in that rest period through that. And really focus on being intentional through that rest and breathing and et cetera. Doing those things I mentioned.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, absolutely. I think that this is probably the most misleading title of a workout ever, because when you think of the word like cruise, it's like, oh, I'm gonna go cruise down on this big ship and I'm gonna have a cocktail in my hand. I might go down a water slide or whatever. But, um, this is no cruise, people. This is no cruise. Um, and so I'm wondering if you have any mental tricks to keep these, you know, these smooth and maintain effort all the way through to the end.

Ryan Tibball: Yeah, I, you know, I kind of look at cruise is to send the set, the mindset. I am cruising like this is, you know, potentially, you know, my, like once I get into this, I do feel uncomfortable. It's maintainable though. And that, and I kind of put that mental in my head, this is uncomfortable, but it's maintainable. I know I'm in zone four. I see it on my watch, I feel it. And you know, again, I equate this back to racing and just building that mental fortitude, that grace, grit, that physical feeling as well. And you know, again, that's what it's about. And one thing I will say is, guys, we all talk to each other, but we seem to only talk in our own heads, right? And when I talk about that positive attitude, what I'm talking about is you actually physically saying out loud during a cruise interval, you got this push, keep going, move, keep the words positive. You know what, it's hard to say anything negative to yourself while you're out running or biking for that matter. So when you're saying it out loud, more than likely it's going to be positive. That's probably one of my favorite things to do when I'm out there on my own.

Vanessa Ronksley: I love that. I've never done that before, so I think I might have to test that one out. The positive, like shout out to yourself.

Ryan Tibball: Yes, when you're going. Absolutely.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's awesome. Now in terms, you've given us some mental tips here. Do you have any practical tips on how to execute this workout so that these cruise intervals are really effective part of an athlete's training cycle?

Ryan Tibball: First off, fuel, guys, you gotta fuel up, right? You know, and that goes for any of these, these workouts that we've been talking through. But these are long, you know, they're not super long, they're like not thresholds, but they're really close to it. And fueling is going to be a key part of prepping yourself before you even get started. And then I do mention obviously earlier on muscle activation and doing the drilling to reinforce body position and actual physical movement while running to maintain posture and form. So these are again, when you're coming at these intervals, like cruise intervals, for example, be intentional from the get go before you even set foot outside and hit those things that you're supposed to be doing. As far as that, what I've mentioned already, you know, outside of that, it just, you know, again, keep, keep up. And I've already talked the mental side just, just have to be, you know, mentally prepare yourself and be ready to hammer it out and get after it.

Vanessa Ronksley: I'm curious because I know that you're the type of person who has amazing posture and form, and you're able to maintain that throughout the entire session. And I've even seen you maintain it when you're hurting really bad at the end of a race. Um, so can you tell us about what, what do we have to say to ourselves when we're tired and our posture and our form might be deteriorating? Are there any cues that you would. That you might give yourself or any of your athletes that will allow them to continue on with their posture and form?

Ryan Tibball: Wow. Good. Really good question. You know, one of the things I do and, and I do take advantage is that during the rest period, even I've done it during the interval itself. You know, this is a very common error from, for many is they tighten up. They. They get tight. Their hands are tight, their shoulders crawl up by, you know, by their ears and, and they're so wound up and tight that, yeah, their form starts to fall apart. They're no longer bouncy, you know, not. Not taking advantage of a lot of things. Their cadence slows down. A lot of things just fall apart. And you have to literally press a reset button in yourself and say, all right, maybe during that rest period, you focus back on. Let me, Let me drop my shoulders, drop my hands down by my side and then bring them back up, up and get back into form. You know, doing those things can help you, you know, again, eat. It all translates to race day. So while you practice, practice, practice, practice, you can check in, do a body awareness check in and go drop the shoulders, drop the hands. Now relax. Take some big deep breaths and, and, and then re. You know, continue on, keep moving forward and, and re-engage everything that you're supposed to be doing.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all of those tips and tricks with us and for helping us to decode all of these workouts.

Cool Down

Vanessa Ronksley: All right, everybody, it is cool down time. Thank you so much for joining us. All the way through to the end, we have been asking our audience to send us questions, questions, any means that you want to do that, whether you want to message one of us or you want to click on the link on the podcast webpage to leave a voicemail. Reach out to us on social media, ask us your questions. So we have a submission here from Matthew, and the question is on execution. So I'm reading this as if I am Matthew this one is for you, Ryan. Uh, should I dial down the pace even more to keep my heart rate in check? I've been told to stick to the pace when pace is the session goal, but having my heart rate in zone three for the majority of the long run does not seem ideal. Now I'm, I'm going to give you a little bit of background on this one. There was a, a lot more that was written, but I truncated a little bit. Um, this person was struggling specifically with humidity, so and, and temperature. So that was affecting their ability to go back into that zone too. So what would you say to that? To make sure that someone's heart rate is kind of in tune with their pacing or if it doesn't even matter at all, what do you think?

Ryan Tibball: It does matter. But you know, I want to get down to the bones of this question because you mentioned that this particular workout was by pace and being that it was a pace setted setting goal of the workout, you're gonna, yes, your heart rate may be elevated and I'll take into consideration the, the other factors you just mentioned. But yeah, run, run at zone two pace. And, and here's why.  It's because on race day, you're gonna be at the tail end of a race. You're gonna be tail end of a run. Whether it's a truck triathlon or a running race, your, your heart rate's going to be elevated. You're going to be in that zone that, you know, maybe, maybe it's not the zone you wanted to be in or maybe it's a higher zone, for example, but you have this opportunity now, while this is a pace set workout, to maintain pace even though your heart rate is elevated outside of zone two when it says remainder of time in zone two pace. Okay. Now to address the humidity and temperature piece of it, you know, one thing is, you know, this time of year, obviously we're getting cooler now, but it, you know, depending upon when this airs. But the fact is, is I live in Texas, so it's really important to make sure that you are, when you're going out for your run, that you are changing the time of your workout so that it's taking into account the temperature, humidity, elevation too. And, and so it's adjusting your pace zones appropriately. Now that might line up better in this particular workout if those were adjusted too. Not to say it would guarantee that the other factors are hydration, fueling, pre hydration. So these can affect your heart rate directly. Absolutely. If you haven't fueled, right. You haven't hydrated. Right. You haven't pre done these pre things. Right. That can affect it too. I'm going to tell go even further. Maybe your aerobic capacity hasn't been is as strong as it should be, right? Not yet. Not yet. So I want to keep it positive, guys. Not yet. But when you have those zone two heart rate runs, that's all Zone two, that's where you focus on making sure your heart rate stays exactly where it needs to be. Right. Regardless of pacing. If that causes you to walk, walk, keep that heart rate exactly where it needs to be. And you're going to see that translate over to these runs that have these intervals and then the remainder of time in zone two and you're going to start seeing your heart rate and your pacing lining up. You know, always envision the finish line, guys, and you know your heart rate is in. Matthew, your heart rate's going to be elevated as you as you get there. And so just kind of envision that day that you're gunning for that finish line and this will all pay off in the end.

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