Racing a triathlon relay is a great way to mix up your race season, practice one specific discipline, and have fun along the way! Coaches Ben Sommerville and Ryan Tibball join the podcast to explain the most common relay formats and how to best race them. From selecting your teammates to split pacing and transition tips, Ben and Ryan coach us through it all. This episode will have you ready to grab some friends and register for a relay adventure!
TriDot Podcast Episode 291
Teamwork in Triathlon: Racing a Relay
Announcer: This is the TriDot Podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire and entertain. We'll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let's improve together.
Andrew Harley: Hey everyone. Welcome to the TriDot Podcast. This should be a dandy of a fun episode. We're talking about doing a multisport relay. You do not always have to go to the races and do the swim, the bike and the run all by yourself. Sometimes you can do it with some friends and have a little bit of fun along the way. To teach us about how to do this, why to do this, what is the value of signing up for a relay and how to race as strong as possible within your relay is coach Ben Somerville and Ryan Tibball. Ben is a two-time national champion at the sprint and distance. He's a coach with precision coaching and he is tried out digital marketing manager. Ryan Tibball is a respiratory therapist. He holds certifications as a triathlon, cycling, running and strength coach. And he is the IRONMAN Connect Advisor and TriDot Coach. Coach Ben Coach Ryan, welcome back to the show.
Ryan Tibball: Excited to be here guys. Always lovely to talk with one of our fellow coaches across the pond there.
Ben Sommerville: I couldn't agree more, Ryan. It's great to be on a podcast with you again and I'm really looking forward to this one. This is going to be a load of fun.
Andrew Harley: I am Andrew, the average triathlete, voice of the people and captain of the middle of the pack. As always, we'll start off with our warmup question, settle in to our relay focused main set conversation and then we'll wind things down with Vanessa interviewing a different try to coach for the coach cooldown. Tip of the week. Lots of good stuff. Let's get to it.
Announcer: Time to warm up. Let's get moving.
Warm Up
Andrew Harley: While we're talking relay racing, I have a relay racing focused warm up question and what I want to know guys from our whole tried out audience. If you could do a relay event with any two people, what two people do you want on your relay team? And I'm going to throw a little twist on this for Ben, Ryan and myself. I want to know guys, specifically within the TriDot universe, who would you most want to relay with? So this could be people who are regular podcast guests. This could be other tried out athletes or ambassadors you've met along the way. Other try to coaches this could be some of our try to Legends. But I want to know, Ben Ryan, who in the TriDot universe would you most want to do a relay with and what leg of the race are these people taking? Coach Ryan, what do you got?
Ryan Tibball: Oh my gosh. You know what, Andrew? I could make probably six relays right now. The numbers that I really. And I'm afraid to answer this question because I fear I'm going to offend some others and. But I, I will say my answer is going to be rocking a relay with the two of my very own athletes. One is Cari Lubinow, AKA Torpedo, affectionately called Torpedo for a reason because she is a beast in the water. And Vanessa Ronksley, we all know Vanessa, she just has zero fear on the bike. And so it just kind of leaves me basically to the run and I, I hope to. Hope to bring up the team, bring them proud at the finish line because there's a little story about those two anyways about another relay situation that happened in. Those two were waiting for me and hopefully maybe I might be able to share that a little later too.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, maybe so maybe the opportunity will present itself. But yeah, great pick. And obviously Vanessa is on the podcast frequently. Cari was on an episode talking about Kona a few years back. Yeah, wonderful choices there too. Your very own coached athletes that are connected to the company. Coach Ben, what is this answer for you?
Ben Sommerville: Oh, this is such a cool question. And I feel quite lucky sometimes that I get to work with our. Try not Legends directly, but I'm gonna have to offend them by not including them in my team either. I'm gonna play the proper coach hat role and it's got to be two of my coached athletes. I'd probably do the swim for my team. I. I get often referred to as a fish. It's always a compliment. I hope. So I'll do the swim and I think I'll probably have my coach, athlete Lizzie, she's an absolute monster on the bike. She just loves cycling. If you just ask her to do anything on a bike, she'll just go for it. And then probably my athlete Lewis, he's a young lad, he's got loads of potential and he's just a great runner. He just loves getting out there and giving it a go. I think would be a really good, fun team. But you know, maybe there's a. There's a Legends team in there for another day potentially.
Andrew Harley: Yep. Yeah. And yeah, Ben works very closely on the Legends edition of TriDot. If you're not aware of what that is you can be coached by Brenda Carfrae, Tim O'Donnell, Michellie Jones, Mark Allen and so many more. Craig Alexander, Kathleen McCartney. I, I, you know, the list goes on and on of legendary figures in our sport. Mike Reilly who are connected to try dot and for people in the Legends Edition there are live calls, there are touch points, there are all sorts of really cool things that happen between the Legends and our Legends Edition athletes. So if a one to one coach is not in your budget, the Legends Edition is kind of the next best thing or for some people the best possible way to train. You have tried out training with kind of all of these legends in your pocket talking to you about the sport. So that's what Ben is kind of referring to there. And Ben is actually our staff member who works the closest on making sure the Legends Edition is an awesome way to do your tried out training. So Ben, I'm actually going to include one of our Legends on my list here. So I'm going to go with Mark Allen. I would love to be a part of Mark Allen coming back to the racing side of the sport. He's been a coach for so many years, he hasn't raced in a hot minute and if I could drag him onto a relay team and have him actually participate in a race event that would be super cool to me. And the other person I'm going to choose is B.J. Leeper, Dr. B.J. Leeper on the podcast. He has a PhD in physical therapy. So he comes on the show and talks a lot about injury prevention and mobility and strength training. But B.J. also works for TriDot as part of our team that works on the app and works on the data science side of what the company is doing. And B.J. and Mark are kind of the same. They haven't raced in a while, they love the sport and I would love to get the two of them back onto a race course for the very first time. And I feel like a relay might be a good way to do that. So I would basically say, hey B.J.. Hey Mark. Which leg do you guys want to do? And whichever one they don't claim for themselves, I would be happy to do the third just to see them back on a race course again. So those are my picks. I'm curious to see what our trata audience is gonna say. We're gonna throw this question out on the community hub, so go find it and let us know what two people you most wanna do a relay with. You can choose whoever you want to that you're buddies with. You can choose friends, you can choose family, or if you wanna do what we did, you can try to find this answer and pick two people in the try dot universe. Can't wait to see what you our audience has to say.
Announcer: On to the main set. Going in 3, 2, 1.
Main Set
Andrew Harley: I myself have done two different relay races in my triathlon career. 10 years in the sport. 2, 2 of my races were relays. I feel like I need to get a couple more on the calendar because they are loads of fun and I'm excited to just hear from our coaches on why doing a relay could be beneficial for our training and racing habits. What are the best strategies around racing strong in a relay? This is going to be a really fun episode. And guys, where I want to start today is I want to hear just from your own personal experience racing relays. Specifically, what is your favorite relay experience that you have been a part of? Coach Ben, what do you got?
Ben Sommerville: Like you, Andrew, I've probably done not enough relays and so I definitely need to include some more. I think I get a bit selfish. I want to do all on my own. So I'm going to flashback to 2023, to the age group world championships in Hamburg. Anybody who remembers one of my podcast appearances, I have talked about this event, but I didn't get to mention the mixed team relay that I also got to take part in representing Great Britain as an age grouper.
Andrew Harley: Super cool.
Ben Sommerville: So quick shout out to my teammates, Caleb, Ellie and Frankie. We were team four for Great Britain. We came 10th in the world. It was just chaos, let's be honest. And just racing in the city center of Hamburg over a super sprint format, back to back to back, just like the elites do. I remember going off first. I was the first man off of my team and it was just, it was electric. The atmosphere was crazy and it's again like the sprint lifelong memory and I'll never forget it. It was so cool.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, I've done that format as well. Ben and I had to go first and I was not in shape and I'm just like on the, you know, you're in the water like treading water for the mass wave start and I'm just like, how did I get here? What, what am I doing? I haven't swam in a hot minute but it was loads of fun. And we'll talk about that format specifically throughout this show as well.
Ryan Tibball: Coach Ryan, that's, that's pretty easy one. And this one does really truly date back. In fact, this event is no longer offered but it was IRONMAN 70.3 Austin event. So down in Austin, Texas, I raced with my sister and her husband and their last name is Bernal and my last name is Tibball. And we, they literally called our team Team Burn Balls. So you know, it was quite funny, you know, but it added to the fun of this whole relay situation. My sister swam for Texas A and M, so that was a no brainer. She goes and swims, she goes, smokes to swim. I took the bike, which is interesting enough is my weakest discipline and then my brother in law whose strong suit is, is actually the run. So it sense. But there's a. I'll try to keep the story very, very short, but let's just say my sister crushed the swim. Get out. She tags me off, I take off on the bike and I had a series of mishaps on the bike, meaning I had four flats and you know, nothing else can ruin.
Andrew Harley: Get it together, Tibball. Get it together.
Ryan Tibball: I know, funny. Long story short, if anybody wants to know that whole detail of that, I'll tell it. But you know, later at a, another time. But when I got back into transition, my brother in law asked me, hey, everything okay man? Because there was another athlete who saw you four times and, and I was like, he goes every time you, you, you pulled over, you fixed it, you took off, you passed him up and then ended up, he ended up seeing me again every time I was pulled over again. So nonetheless we had a blast. And, and that was just a great experience. My sister and my brother in law were just, just fabulous part and you know, I kind of look back at that and that was very, a lot, a lot of fun kind of earlier in my career of IRONMAN events.
Andrew Harley: So yeah, very, very good. My, my personal favorite one I've been a part of, we did a relay at Clash Daytona a few years back and. Clash Daytona, you guys have heard me on the podcast before talk about it, super fun event where you actually race on Daytona Motor Speedway International Speedway to be exact with the title there and you get to ride your bike on the track, you're running around the infield. Super, super cool event. And a lot of us went into town to do it and I, you know, I signed up for the sprint as an individual and then did the middle distance as a relay. And so that was a really cool way to get to do both races without totally destroying my body. Uh, but yeah, I, I did that with try to coach Dan Caskey, try to coach Tony Washington, they're both podcast regulars. Uh, and so the three of us got out there and you know, Dan swam, Tony, coach, Tony did the bike and I did the run. That's my favorite experience, doing that relay with those guys and being a part of it. Um, now in triathlon, relay racing can take a few different forms and we've already alluded to that. Ben, you, you mentioned your kind of the sprint, the super sprint format where every athlete does a super sprint back to back to back to back. The Olympics does this. If people watch the Olympics, that's probably the best example of this. And then there's also kind of the traditional format where somebody swims, somebody bikes, somebody runs. Ben, are those. The two different formats here are the most common ones. Is there any, any other way to, to see a multisport relay?
Ben Sommerville: The ones we just mentioned, you kind of traditional, you split the three disciplines amongst the three of you. That's probably the most common for sure. The mixed team relay is becoming more and more common. So that's where you either have a team of two, two men, two women, or it could be potentially up to four of the same gender in the same team and you go back to back to back. But there is one variation that doesn't get used as often and it doesn't have a huge history outside of the UK but there is a team time trial format where your entire team of four has to compete over a sprint distance triathlon at the same time. So you have to swim together, you have to bike together and you have to run together. It used to be held over a national championship format here in the UK and probably in some parts of Europe. France and Germany love the relay format as well. And more often than not it was characterized by their weakest athlete getting to the run, having to be pushed because they were flagging or they just weren't as strong of a runner. And so there was some great pictures, great stories from events like that. And so yeah, those are in my book, kind of the three most common. That final team time trial one is probably the least, least common. You won't see that very often, but if ever in doubt, just ask the events that you're interested in going to. What relay options do you have? I think it's worth noting, noting that over the IRONMAN distances, It's only the 70.3 as far as I know that you can do a relay as part of a team. I don't think you can do a team relay over the full distance IRONMAN for whatever reason. Probably just the logistics of it, I suppose. And so yeah, those are probably the most important ones to look out for if you are interested in grabbing some friends and getting involved in a triathlon relay.
Andrew Harley: Now, a question I have, you know, we keep mentioning, these things are fun to do and so other than the fun factor, why would a triathlete do a relay instead of showing up to do the whole race solo? You know, we all train for all three sports. We're fit in all three sports. If I'm going to take a Saturday or a Sunday and wake up early and go do a race, why, and, and I like, I'm a triathlete, I like all three of these sports. Why would I just sign up to do the 1. Are there any benefits to, to either our training habits or our racing habits that that makes it worth adding one of these to the calendar? Coach Ryan, what do you think?
Ryan Tibball: Yeah, you know, that, that, that's a great question. You know, thinking about some athletes who have, you know, we've all talked to friends who said, man, I'd really love to do a triathlon, but you know, I, I, I can't, I can't swim. It was one of the big ones. Or, you know, I got bum knees, but I sure can swim or I sure can bike, but I can't run. And I think when you, when you think about that, if you are considering, you know, like dabbling in the sport of triathlon, why not, you know, choose to, hey, I'm strong in this, let's put a relay team together. Let me find friends. Unsuspecting friends. You could say that. But yeah, work to your strength and, and you, you start to create that team or, you know, for example, or you eliminate your weakness and say, I definitely am not going to swim, but I, I can certainly contribute to a team in another way. And, and I tell you what, you know, once you, you step into the triathlon world, I mean, this is my own experience is I got hooked, right? And so I was like, definitely want to keep going. And so, you know, I think the, the fun factor is always a huge plus to all of this. And for some, the chance to perhaps make even the podium, you put together a fantastic, you know, relay team. You could get on the, you know, podium there and, and what is known as traditionally a, a individual sport. So I think a relay is a great option for anyone just thinking about the sport of triathlon. Why not step into a relay, get, find two people and you know, you guys pick to your strengths and go for it.
Andrew Harley: Coach Ben, as you're talking with your athletes, are there any Other just physical benefits to the athlete and your own fitness, your own, your own race experience to signing up for a relay as opposed to going solo on race weekend.
Ben Sommerville: Oh for sure. You know obviously my first point of call with any of my athletes is you know obviously pointing them in the direction of events that they're going to enjoy and they're going to get great benefit from. And so yeah as Ryan said, it's all about the fun factor first and foremost. It's a great gateway secondly for new people into the sport. But I think what often people don't realize is if you are an experienced athlete who's very capable of completing a triathlon of any distance or your specific distance on your own back to back to back like we normally would potentially you can use relays, taking part with your friends just to do a single discipline as part of your training. It's a really good kind of time trial hit out opportunity. So you can really kind of dial in your ability either over swim, bike and run. You can either play to your strength and choose to do something you're strong to get a really good training session. I'll say training session with inverted commas or you could do what most people don't do because it's a little bit scary. You could go do you know what? Swim is my weakest. I'm going to contribute to my relay team, to the swim and I'm going to push myself out of my comfort zone and really use it as an opportunity to find out what I am capable of in that sort of one off environment whilst at the same time just having a really good social time. Because yeah this sport's so individual and you know everyone's motivations is very different but just for those more experienced athletes out there, don't forget you can do a relay for a, for training just as much as it is for sort of doing it as a race for yourself or for your team as well.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, I love Ben you pointing out just the time trial aspect of it. It's fun to kind of just gauge what is my fitness in this one discipline to push yourself in that one discipline to take the pressure off of having to do the whole day both physically and logistically. And like I said for me when I did Clash Daytona, if you're becoming involved in a festival like weekend it's a great way to participate in more than one event because you can, you can do an event on your own, you can do an event or, or it's a great way within your season if you have four or five or six individual triathlons you're doing on your own that are your A races, B races, it's a great way just to throw one more on onto the calendar as, as a casual C race to just partake in one more race by doing it with some of your buddies. So now I, I, I'm curious. When a team gets together and, and you know, we, we've identified the most common way to do a relay event is one person does the swim, one person does the bike, one person does the run. If that's the format, what should a relay team think through when choosing who is doing which leg, especially if your team is racing and really trying to optimize performance?
Ryan Tibball: Coach Ryan yeah, that's a, very obviously the most common thing to think about is you know you're, if your goal is to race this, yeah. Play to the strengths. And then on top of that you have to kind of take that deeper, dive into your teammates and go all right. You know, while one person may be really, really awesome in the swim and the run and then you've got another one who may be okay in both of those but where are the biggest time gains or rather you know, the speed going to come from? So you actually have to sit down and maybe start crunching the math a little bit and saying this is what my expected time is going to be. Each one your teammate and go, okay. While your biking may be phenomenal, your biggest, the biggest gains might come from your run, you know, for the team effort. And so when you, when you talk, when you categorize this as a racing event with your teammates, I think you have to really look at it from that perspective. It's like just because somebody's really good in the run doesn't necessarily they me may be running in the relay, they may be doing a different discipline once you start crunching all those numbers. So things that really factor in into those situations.
Andrew Harley: Coach Ben, anything to add from your experience racing for the wonderful nation of Great Britain?
Ben Sommerville: Well, luckily when I represented Great Britain I didn't have to self select my, my team and my position in the team. Hats off to our team managers who act as kind of selectors and this is where you know, even if you are just amongst friends but trying to race, perhaps it's at a national championships and things like this or you just want to get a really good time, a local small or medium sized event, you've got to put your Olympic selection hat on and you know your on paper fastest swim bike runner might not be the Best person for each of those roles. For example, like if your, you know, fastest swimmer isn't as confident necessarily in the open water environment, they're a really good pool swimmer. But you're relays in open water. Perhaps they're not the best option. You're going to want someone who's confident, who's calm, who's collected, who loves a fast start, who loves to get a bit aggressive in an open water environment. Similarly, you might have to look for your bike and run if you need to minimize or close or hold a gap. Who likes to be chased, who likes to do chasing. You kind of take your RaceX predictions if you're a trial athlete and go. That's just one part of the puzzle. That's one data point. Understand the course, understand the athlete, what motivates them. And then if you've got any data on other teams, look at previous year's results. What do other teams do? Do you know, the start list? What are other teams going to be there? And if you've got any more of that context, that information, put your Olympic selector hat on. I don't envy the job of anybody who's involved in Olympic team relay selection. Goodness knows how they manage to pick those teams because they have to consider every single factor, every single scenario. And so it's just understand the deeper context, understand the characters and the personalities and match that to the race. Because as I said this on paper, strongest swimmer, strongest cyclist, strongest runner might not be your perfect relay teammate.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, really interesting stuff there for, for our folks to think about. And Ben, for somebody who is doing the other format, you talked about the, the, the kind of Olympic style format where people are doing the super sprint, they're doing it back to back to back to back. This was a discussion for my team when I raced this. It was who's going first, who's going last, who's, you know, who's going in between. And the strategy is a little bit different from when you split up, swim, bike and run. Right? Because now you're thinking who's going to start well, who's going to finish well. But also if you're, if the person starting these things are draft legal. But let's mention that, Ben, if your person starting is your, is your weakest athlete, so your strongest athlete is your anchor, but they fall off the pace and don't make it with the pack, you're out of the race. So there's a lot of different things happening with that format. For people that are going to race, that talk to us about strategy of who's going first, who's going second, who's going third, who's going forth.
Ben Sommerville: Yeah. And it's in those scenarios that the on paper performance and the actual physical speed and output of these athletes I actually consider to be secondary. For the mixed team relay, especially those shorter distance, the draft legal formats, you're looking at the character and the technical skills of those athletes. Your first athlete needs to not only be really good and really aggressive in that kind of mass start environment when the whole field is together, they also need to be technically proficient, unlike me, where I lost the front pack on the bike because I couldn't get my feet in my shoes. So my team had to do a great deal of work after me to try and close down that gap. Exactly. And so, you know, it was a risk that we had to take. Putting me first. I was the strongest on paper and I'm an experienced athlete, but in the heat of battle, in those pressure moments, I made mistakes. And you can't always control those scenarios when you're planning your team, but, you know, just start at the end and understand, okay, what gaps do you anticipate your team's going to have and where you kind of have to guess sometimes. And so this is where, you know, it's. It takes a lot of time and a lot of skill to really become a master at picking a relay team. But as these events become more and more popular, they certainly are here in Europe. You know, the draft legal super sprint mixed team relay. Now the Olympic success age groupers want to do it just as much as elites do. And so more and more of you are hopefully going to have to experience this kind of event. And so just, you know, learn as you go and just, you know, watch the pros, see how they pick their teams. You know, if you. I'm going to use Team GB as an example, but, you know, Alex Yi doesn't always go last when he competes in a mixed team relay. Sometimes he's like second or third, depending on whether men or women are starting first because, you know, he's such a strong athlete. If there is a gap or they want to create a gap, he's a great man to do it in the middle rather than just leaving him as the one trick pony at the end to just drop everybody because that's a lot of pressure on his three teammates to be at the front to deliver him to the front. And so, yeah, I could talk about this all day. I won't. But it becomes about the character, the technical skills, understanding of the course in another life. I'm an Olympic team relay selector, I think, because I think I'd find it really fun.
Andrew Harley: While we're talking about the mixed team relay, it is so much fun. If you have one pop up in your area, go freaking do it. There's nothing like it in the sport. It is fever pitch. It is fast and furious. Four people in a row, two men, two women, back to back to back to back, doing a super sprint. The whole thing's done in an hour. Like, you're done in literally, like under an hour. Like, it is so wild. Like, your split alone is going to be eight to 14 minutes, depending on how strong of an athlete you are. And you are just redlining it start to finish. It is so fascinating. Anyway, guys, I want to move on to talking about the pacing strategy for your own individual leg. And obviously, if you're doing the mixed team relay like we just talked about, you're just going. You're redlining it the whole time. You're going as fast as you can swim, bike and run, and then you're done very quickly. But for the format where you're either doing the swim, the bike or the run, so you have one standalone discipline. I want to talk about how to pace this, because we're so well versed in pacing the swim, then bike the run, knowing we have to hold back on the bike a little bit because we have a run afterwards. I think as triathletes, a lot of us do run only events, and so we're used to pacing those, but we're used to pacing those at 7 o'clock in the morning when we're. When we're fresh. And it's for when you're doing the run leg of a relay. Like, you're starting hours into the day, and it's a very weird time of day to start. Right. So, anyway, just the easy answer here is put it in RaceX and let RaceX tell you how to pace it. And so you guys can certainly mention that and talk about that. But also for our athletes who are listening, who maybe don't have access to the technology because they're not training with TriDot. Shame on you, but we're glad you're here. Um, just talk to me about this. Like, how can we pace our individual leg as strong as possible? Because surely it's not. Just go out as hard as you can the whole time and hammer it. Uh, whether you're doing the swim, the bike or the run, how can we optimize our own individual Split Coach Ryan.
Ryan Tibball: Yeah, you know, obviously this depends on the distance of the course, but let's assume we're, we're doing a three leg relay of a 70.3 distance. You certainly can on a high level put forth a stronger effort and definitely should, as Ben even mentioned earlier with the kind of, the time trial kind of effect essentially is what you're doing is you are fully fresh, capable of being able to put forth a much stronger effort than you were if you had a swim to precede your bike and bike to precede your run. You know, these are opportunities to where you can certainly treat this as, you know what, I'm going to push my zones up just a hair a little bit more and finish in a sense that, you know what, let's say I'm doing a standalone 13.1. I know I can push harder than I would in a 70.3 from the get go. And so that's the other part of it that gives you those freedoms. Being an individual in each one of those legs gives you that freedom to push those paces, power and speed, knowing you have to do, you don't have to do another discipline. So with that said, now going back into training it, you're going to have to train that way too in many senses, maybe spend some more time. And that's what the beauty of, yes, adding it into your TriDot platform, adding it into RaceX and being able to have those workouts dialed in that going to give you those intensity sessions that you're going to need to perhaps push harder in, in, in the race day situation when you're in your relays. So really great, great opportunity to just kind of, yeah, I wouldn't say redline it for sure in a 70.3, but definitely somewhere you can push much harder than what you would do if you were doing it by yourself.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, yeah. And that's for sure. And that to me is part of the fun here, right, is getting to see what is my fitness in this one discipline if I don't have to do the other two. A couple years back I did for the first time ever a standalone half marathon and I was pacing a friend of mine, right. So I wasn't going like all out for my own fitness but like halfway through he and I are both chit chatting because we're both triathletes and we're like, oh my gosh, this is so much easier than doing a swim and a bike and then running like. And obviously at the end you're really gritting it out because you're going for the best time you can possibly get. But through the first half of it, it was like, is this what it's like to just be a runner? This is so much easier to not have to worry about a bike and a swim, you know. So, yeah, it's a really interesting way to get to just do one of the sports and kind of see what that's like for once. Coach Ben, anything to add there? Just, just when you're approaching this and you're, you're doing one of the disciplines, how you adjust how you approach the pacing compared to knowing you have to do all three.
Ben Sommerville: I think for me, most of my experience as a relay athlete, whether that's the standard format or the mixed team relay, has always been over the shorter distances because that's my background. And so whereas in those longer distance events, you probably don't want to push that absolute red line, even though it is more of a time trial opportunity, you don't have two other disciplines to do. Certainly if I was a sprint or Olympic distance relay athlete, I would find that red line and I would, I would, I would push towards it. And, you know, if I was doing the swim leg, I'd probably, you know, be quite aggressive first 100 to 200 meters and really go to the legs in the final minutes because you don't have to then deal with any running through transition or getting onto the bike and then running later. So just make sure you give your, then your teammates the best possible opportunity. So, you know, go to your legs in the last couple of hundred meters, create a gap, and then, you know, just the more gap you can give you and your teammates in a relay transition, the better. Especially some of these larger events, it's organized chaos. And so if you've got a bit of gap and a bit of space, there's not as much pressure, there's not enough as much chaos in your way. And then, yeah, the bike and the run, you know, don't let the pressure get to you if you're doing those, those legs, because obviously they can make up the majority of the time. That's the big if you're racing then, you know, for a podium, as a team, the bike and the leg, even over the sprint distances, that's where you'll make or break your team's performance. So don't let the pressure get to you, you know, relative to that distance. You know, push that power up a little bit, you know, push those run speeds up, but find the rhythm early on. Progress as you go through, make it Kind of like a progressive effort. And then, you know, I've seen some people who completely change or sort of trained to change their bike setup. So they get rid of some of the other stuff that they would normally have. They just keep it really slimline, be a bit more aggressive, put the disc wheel on the tri spoke on the front on the bike, and they just take it super. As if they were a time trialist going for the Olympic Games. And, you know, there's all those things to consider. And then, yeah, if you are the lucky person to be the runner, that last kilometer is basically for free. So just bring it home and join your teammates at the finish line and have a, have a really strong finish.
Andrew Harley: So something that was so interesting to me when I did the relay at Clash Daytona. And at Clash Daytona, we were actually camping. You could stay in hotels nearby. We were camping in the infield of the track. Me and Jeff Rains shout out to podcast regular Jeff Rains. We were sharing an rv, a rental RV in the middle of the infield of the track. And so as the runner for our team, and this is a middle distance, keep in mind. So, you know, the, the, the swimmer's taking, you know, 40 minutes to an hour. The, the cyclist is gonna take another, you know, two to three hours. Um, you know, I, I had a few hours into the race before I was doing my thing. And so guys, it was, it was such a weird feeling, like laying in the rv, trying to get as much sleep as I could, hearing the starting guns, like, go off, and like, I'm knocked down at the race start for race day. I'm like, in the camper under the covers, like, trying to, to, to get as much sleep as I can to be fresh. But, but it, it, it was weird because, like, usually when we race, we're racing first thing in the morning and we all kind of have this certain rhythm right, where you wake up, you have your breakfast, you try to use the bathroom, you get your stuff ready, you get under the race site. Like there's a rhythm to it. And, and I, I, I really didn't know how to time my last meal before I went down there. I didn't really know how to, how do I time my bathroom? It always different, right? It always pushed back because I was starting a little bit later in the day. And so, you know, this is going to be more dramatic if you're doing middle or long distance as your relay. This will be a little less dramatic if you're doing a sprint or Olympic. But in all four distances, you Know, you aren't going straight out of the gate necessarily unless you're the swimmer. So in that case, Coach Ryan, how can we make sure that if we're the cyclist or the runner, we're arriving, you know, to the transition area to start our leg warmed up, fueled, ready to go, as if we were in our natural rhythm?
Ryan Tibball: Great. Yeah, that, that's definitely a great question. And you know, and it also, you know, you kind of think about this too is when races have say, canceled a, a swim portion of their event like Galveston just did recently because of situations there. But yeah, you have to take those hydration, the fueling, the stay off your leg situation very seriously. And, and that begins with now going back to the relay is understanding what, let's say if you are the biker or the runner, knowing what are your expected swim splits for your teammate, what is the expected bike splits for your teammate? And so taking those times in consideration, you now have a very specific window that you know is like, okay, now I know I can eat maybe solids here about three hours out, because it's, it's going to be fine. I can have a good breakfast, a solid breakfast if I'm the runner. But again, going back to thinking about staying on top of fueling hydration, stay off your legs until you need to get on them is really super important. Then timing on top of that, timing your warmup, prepping yourself, getting in that dynamic mobility, that dynamic stretching, getting in that, the, you know, basically you're trying to fire up the body because you're about to take off like we spoke about, potentially in a much higher pace or speeds or power outputs because you are just doing an individual piece here. So again, looking for, talking about muscle activation and like I mentioned earlier to the stretching, the dynamic mobility, but it's very important again to continue your hydration protocols, continue your fueling protocols as well. And, and not to let that go by the wayside because that is a very common error I have seen with athletes. It's like, oh, I have not eaten anything or drink anything for the last three hours. And I was waiting for my biker to come in. I was like that, that, that needs to be, make sure you have that on top priority. And again, like I said, the warm up, getting yourself nice and prepped and ready to take off out the gate.
Andrew Harley: Ben, I'm going to toss two questions your way about transitions. You know, transitions are going to be a little bit different here than they are in obviously a standalone triathlon. You, you, you are, you are passing the buck to A teammate, whether you're doing the super sprint format or you are doing the standard format, you know you are no longer continuing and doing something to interact and pass off to a teammate. So talk to us, Ben, just logistically between these two formats, how the transitions work.
Ben Sommerville: Yes. So I'll start with the kind of traditional format because generally there's quite a big discrepancy between how transitions work and what the best practices are between the traditional format and the mixed team relay. So for the traditional format, usually held over sort of smaller events as a team, you've probably got one timing chip. And so whenever an athlete is finishing their leg, let's say the swimmer, they finish the swim, they're running through T1, there's usually in the transition zone, a separate zone designated for relay teams to congregate to wait for their athlete, teammate to come along. And it's a simple case of you've got to take the timing chip off your ankle and you've got to give it to your other teammate and before the other teammate can move from that zone and then they continue through transition like any other athlete would do. Best practice for this event is if there's obviously there's going to be two of you is decide who is going to be dealing with the chip rather than two people trying to clamber onto one person's ankle to try and get a chip off and get it onto another person. So what usually happens is in the teams I've been in, find the swimmer coming in, I put my hands up. When I get to my teammate and my teammate, they're a bit fresher, they're a little bit more composed. They then take the timing chip off of my ankle, put it around their ankle and then they continue through transition. And then as the swimmer who's just finished, you just move into that relay zone and then you are done, your responsibilities are done. So that's kind of like the most basic best practice for that kind of format. I'll move on to the mixed team relay format, which is unendingly more complicated and unendingly more fun at the same time. These events are generally held over much more organized, much larger scale events. And so generally, again, this is just general assumptions from my experience, each member of your relay team will have a timing chip that is associated with them their triathlon. So they'll get their own splits across, swim, bike and run and then same again for your other three teammates. So the relay changeover is a simple case of getting through to the finish line. There's usually A funnel section that then moves them away from the finish line. And what they do is your teammates are just lined up. You've seen on the Olympics, your teammates are lined up and you've got to make physical contact with your teammate. You can high five them, you can fist bump them, you could give them a head bump, whatever you want, do it safely and do it with respect, of course. And then that next athlete continues down a separate funnel away from the finish line. And generally these events, they try and keep their finish line and their swim start in close proximity. My experience in Hamburg is the finish line and the swim start were about 500 meters away from each other. So you've got a great deal of a run run if you are one of those relay changeover athletes, to go from that hand, that hand changeover to run to the swim start. And then for these sort of events you get to do that running, dive into the water as well, which is sometimes very funny. There's a great video that came out of that Hamburg World Championships, you know, that expectation versus reality kind of meme where you know, there was videos of the pros doing it and then usage group was giving it a go. It was genuinely hilarious. I'll try and put it on my socials at some point and reshare that. And so the best practice for a mixed team relay is just be really vocal when you're coming towards the end and have your teammates aware to just raise their hands, shout, scream, Ben, where are you? And just have their arm out ready for you to just do that changeover and get it done as quickly as possible. And then there's responsibility of that changeover athlete just with calm and composure and without taking the pressure too much, regardless of their situation in the race to just continue down the funnel. And it takes real teamwork and you know, logistical prep. You know, start at the end and work backwards to really have good expectations and understanding between you as a team. You know, go through the walkthrough of the event. Where in, in transition can you be? Where in transition can't you be? Where do you do your changeovers? Because the last thing you want to do is make mistakes, especially if you're racing, because then it puts your other teammates under pressure to kind of claw back that gap that you've un fortunately opened up for them. So I hope that pretty much covers the two, two main formats in the most basic best practice. But yeah, just communication is key before the event. Just do that non physical prep with your teammates so you all know what you need to do and when.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, super helpful, Ben. I also want to point out, if you are the cyclist or the runner, make sure you're in transition, ready to go. That's part of the beauty here, right? Like have your, have your cycling shoes on, have your helmet on, have your sunglasses on, running shoes. Whichever leg you're doing, be fully ready to go. Like that, that sounds obvious, but let's just, let's just make sure we say it right. Be standing in transition next to, next to your spot on the rack and be ready to receive that hand. Like be aware of where your athlete is on course and make sure that you are in your spot, focused, ready to go as they're coming in the transition area. So I do want to add that a little bit as well, Ben, onto the mixed relay format, something that, you know, I, I, I led for our team. So I was the one doing the, the first tag. But the atmosphere around that transition area in the mixed relay format was just fever pitch. People were screaming, people were cheering, people were having a blast with, there's music, pumping and I would imagine if you're athlete number two, three or four, you know, you're in the pack, you're fighting for position, you're, you're trying to make sure the athlete coming in sees your hand, you do the handoff, you run to the water to dive into the water. I would imagine there's a good deal of adrenaline in that whole process and you've got the chance to jump under the water with an elevated heart rate and have a bad swim because of it. So Ben, how can you stay calm in that environment to make sure you're actually in the water, settled in, ready to find a good rhythm as opposed to already out of sorts from the start?
Ben Sommerville: That is such a good but difficult question, and it's a very individual scenario. What works for me will not work for another athlete in terms of, of maintaining calm, maintaining composure in that chaotic, that fever pitch frenzy that is a mixed team relay sort of changeover and transition zone. And I think the most important thing to do for any athlete, once they've made that physical contact, they've done the changeover and they're running, they're quite literally sprinting more often than not to the swim start to get to do that sort of leapfrog dive entry. It's just a really focus on your breathing. I've said it before and it sounds so simple and sounds so basic, but the last thing you want to do is take all that adrenaline in on the changeover and then Just go hold your breath and panic as you're sprinting towards the water. Just, you know, take a chill pill, take it down a level, focus on just running well, running smoothly and just with good conscious breath. And then when you do get to the water, probably just, you know, once you do that dive start, no matter how well that dive start goes, because it's probably, unless you know you've done it a lot of times may not be your best dive in the world, particularly if you're not a strong swimmer and not got much experience diving. When you do hit that water, those first three to five, maybe 10 strokes just make them the most intentional strokes you could possibly do in your life, in your entire swimming career. And just settle that breathing again because it's very likely to be open water more often than not. It may not be a wetsuit swim. And so you may get that cold shock at the same time jumping into the open water. And so it's right back down to that basic breathing pattern again. Just really take it down a notch, take that chill pillow and just focus on, you know, your form, your technique and putting in the best possible performance. It sounds, it's easier said than done just to say, ah, the pressure and the adrenaline is not going to make any difference to me. But you know, in training, in other race environments, just start to pay attention to what triggers that level of pressure in you. But then what also triggers that level of calm at the same time? Find those polar opposites and just practice, practice, practice. The best relay athletes are not always the ones who are strongest on paper, swim, bike or run. They're the ones who can take the pressure. They can almost be stood there waiting for their teammates, still being very vocal, taking in the atmosphere, but they're almost kind of tunnel visioned. They're blocking it out. They're just focusing on their composure, on their breath. And then when that gun hits, you know, that changeover hits the hand makes contact, it's then straight into their process. And it is really magic when you see some of those athletes just in that complete flow state and just find what works for you really. But tune into the breath first and foremost and just keep it really, really simple. And there's no heroes. So don't go off like an absolute lunatic in the water. You will regret it, even though the race is short. So just, just go easy on yourself. It's better for you and your team if you, if you act with a little bit of composure and some, some sensibility.
Ryan Tibball: I love that bit, you know, as a respiratory Therapist. I fully support your statements there for the breathing thing, you know. Absolutely. I love the boxes. Box breathing, for example, great way to calm. And for those that don't know about box breathing, just look that up. It's, it's a great way to calm your breath and, and you know, even as starting off as an individual in, in your swim, seriously great way to do it. And then again, you know, like Ben said, calm yourself down from the get go in those first five to ten strokes into that water.
Andrew Harley: Yeah. And I love Ben. As you're, as you're mentioning the tunnel vision, right? Not, it's not tunnel vision like you're blocking out the fun, you're blocking out the experience. I mean, enjoy the experience. But at the end of the day, all you can control is your split. Right. Whichever format it is. Right. All you can control is your time on course. And so, you know, have fun with the experience. Take in the vibe, take in the energy, you know, but don't get so caught up in it all that you, you lose sight of taking care of business when it's your turn to take care of business. A few more questions here, guys. Coach Ryan, talk to us about this. What is the finish line experience like in a relay? Obviously, if you're the runner or if you're the final athlete, you know, you're going to be crossing the finish line anyway. For the swimmer and cyclists, what, what happens here when it comes time for the team or the final person to cross the finish line?
Ryan Tibball: Well, I think first off, they're really bored after a while, you know, they're just waiting for their runner to come in, so. But no, it's exciting, you know, especially when, you know, your expected ETA of your runner and getting to that finish line. And I'll be honest, my experience at, you know, in my relays that I've done and also being a part of kind of a relay, that's another story. But it was standing there and waiting for my teammate to come across was I, I felt honestly truly more exciting than me crossing the line itself. It was such just knowing that we put together that team effort. It was just so gratifying. Grateful to know that I was part of somebody else's team. And we all contributed to the success and finalization of this day crossing that finish line. Even though we couldn't cross with them, it was still just exhilarating and exciting to watch that finish. And so that's why I say everybody should try a relay for sure. It's something that is just a totally different Experience and the finish line is again, honestly just as fun, if not better, in my opinion.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, and, and, and just want to point out, just depending on who the race is through, that there's always kind of different procedures, that there's some race production companies that will allow the swimmer and cyclist to join the runner to cross the line together and that always makes a great photo finish. There's some production companies that just the runner crosses or the final athlete crosses. And, and there's reasons for both. Right? The, the, the, the former wants to make the fun, the finish line as fun as possible for all athletes involved. The latter wants to protect the integrity of the race so that there's a cleaner finish shoot for all the athletes going through. And so there's reasonings for both. But just be aware that that, that might be a little bit different just depending on which race production company you're doing your relay through. Guys, if one of our athletes wants to jump into a relay, what are the best ways to do this? You know, how can we find two or three other athletes to race with? I mean, especially in triathlon, most of our friends want to do the whole race themselves. So how can we get organized, grab a few friends and make this happen for ourselves? Coach Ben?
Ben Sommerville: The first and the easiest way is if you're already part of a triathlon club, there's probably plenty of people that you know who would want to get involved. If not, the triathlon club is already identifying events at which they want to send teams. And this is very common here in the UK. Local triathlon clubs will lay out a seat, a calendar of races where they go, oh, these races, we'd love you all to be there. We'd also want to put forward some teams. My, my local triathlon club also hosts their own triathlon. And so what they like to do is have some teams from the triathlon club members represented together as a relay and individual at that event. And so if you are part of a club, part of a team, or you just know other triathletes, you've just got to ask that. The worst they can say is, no, they don't want to do it as part of a relay, but they might not. They might know someone who does want to do it as part of a relay. And as I said, if you know someone who's becoming sort of more and more involved in triathlon, offer them the opportunity as if it's, you know, it's their gateway into the sport. It's, you know, it's a zero pressure way for them to experience the atmosphere of a triathlon without the pressure and the logistics and the physical preparation to do all three. And so you just got to ask the question. And you know, you could do that online if you've got an active social media presence where, you know, there's people around you who are quite literally local as well. Just pop there on your, on your social media feed. Anyone fancy doing a triathlon relay with me on this date, this event, this is how it works. And you just ask the question. The worst they could say is no.
Andrew Harley: Yeah, I think too, you know, just think outside of the box. Like, you don't have to find triathlete friends here because of what the format is. I mean, think, think through what runner friends do I have? You know what, what cycling friends do I have? They like to, they're not triathletes, but they know how to ride a bike and they like riding a bike. You know, this is a great opportunity to rope in some non triathlete friends into doing a triathlon event of sorts. And you know, that that definitely opens up the catalog of how many people in your circle enjoy those sports. And, and for them it's, it's, it's fun. It's, it's, hey, I got to partake in an IRONMAN event or a, a triathlon event of some kind and enjoy that without becoming a swimmer or a biker or, you know, having to do all three. So, so definitely open it up and don't limit yourself to your friends, your peers, fellow tri daughters who are already triathletes. Know that this is a great way to rope in some single discipline, single sport friends of yours. So I'll throw that out there as well as a point and you don't have to have three people. We haven't said this yet. There was last year, Jeff Rains, one of our TRY coaches, one of our staff members, regular on the TRY podcast. His wife Sarah wanted to race Half IRONMAN Waco last year. And, and specifically she wanted to do the swim in the run. And so she was looking for a cyclist to take the bike leg, you know, where she was at in her training cycle. She really just wanted to go out there and do a 1.2 mile swim and a half marathon, but she didn't want to do the whole all three things. And so, you know, I, I signed up to do the bike leg for her and ended up having to pull out of that actually, and it didn't actually happen. But, but just a case in point that you can have somebody do two of the three disciplines in a relay, if you find somebody who's willing to do one as well. So last question I want to wrap up with today. Coach Ryan, you mentioned at the top of the show a really fun team name for a relay. What was that name again? Burn Balls. Yeah, Team Burn Balls.
Ryan Tibball: That was Team Burn Balls. Yeah. Bernal and Tibball were put together and that's what happened happen.
Andrew Harley: I don't think, you know, when Ben goes and represents Team UK, I don't think they're coming up with fun team names at that level. But at the local event or even IRONMAN, you know, you know, big production company event, part of the culture of the relay experience is coming up with a fun team name. When you look at the relay team list, probably 90% of them have a fun team name and the rest of them are like just a name, you know, Team Andrew, like, you know, something, something pretty straightforward. Ryan, Ben, any, any just creative tips for how to make sure your team name really hits hard with that culture of fun team names. What do you think?
Ryan Tibball: I need, I need to, I need to bring up this one because this happened and I thought, oh my gosh, this is great. I was, as I was looking up my own Name and IRONMAN Wisconsin 70.3 Last year I found two of me but turns out one of them was a relay and it was actually labeled “Out to Beat Ryan Tibball”. And I thought who just made a team name that turns out it was Cari Lubinow and Vanessa Ronsley who did a two team person relay.
Andrew Harley: Ah.
Ryan Tibball: So nonetheless they, I'll keep that story short. They were successful. But there was a story at the race itself when out to beat Ryan Tibball relay got out of the water first and the swim announcer was looking for Ryan Tibball me and he goes, where's Ryan Tibball? Apparently they're doing their job today. And so I just, I just have to add that I think so far, I mean, that's my answer. I mean you come up with unique names, it's just fun and yes, definitely make it fun and they certainly accomplish that that day.
Andrew Harley: And they beat you. Yep. Coach Ben, any, any additional insight into this very serious question?
Ben Sommerville: I don't think I can beat the team name out to beat Ryan Tibball. That's just pure comedy genius. Or Burn Balls. That is equally a great name. And so I think the floor is open and you know, just really let the characters and the personalities of your team come out. You know, rather than just using the team triathlon training club, you know, it's like, that's so boring. Like, it's so expected. Like some of the funny ones I've seen are the Mighty Ducks. You know, that gets a lot of attention. They didn't even have ducks on their kit. I was like, that's such a wasted opportunity. They could have had like this really cool custom kit with like ducks all over it. You know, depending on how serious you are about relay, some relay teams get wacky names and they've got wacky kit to match it, you know, so it's just, it's kind of a cultural thing. Like it's a really weird kind of vibe where sometimes people just have really obscure names. So just let creativity run wild basically, without being offensive. Of course. Don't go too far. You know, obviously these are family friendly events, but, you know, just lean into the characters and the personalities. Perhaps it's an inside joke from somewhere you've trained or something you've experienced as a team. There's all kinds of things to choose. You know, I'm a bit gutted. I saw the team, the Mighty Ducks, because that's probably a team name I would want to use because I think it's just quite cool and a bit ridiculous. So, yeah, unfortunately, like you said, when I represented Great Britain as an age grouper, I was in the hilariously named Team 4.
Andrew Harley: Loads of personality there. Yeah, loads.
Ben Sommerville: There was so much personality. Yeah. I was athlete one, Team four and I had a really long bib number with like an A at the end. You know, athletes are designated A, B, C or D depending on where you are in the relay. So I was like 3, 5, 8, 0, a GBR team 4. I just, I felt like a number. It was very dehumanizing. So just don't do those events, you know, do events where you can choose your own name.
Announcer: Great set everyone. Let's cool down.
Cool Down
Vanessa Ronksley: Guess what time it is. That's right, it's cool down tip time. And I'm Vanessa, your average triathlete with elite level enthusiasm. Our featured TriDot coach comes to us from the Woodlands of Texas and is here to share his coaching expertise. Ken Page is a Boston Marathon finisher who started out as a USA Fit Run coach. He eventually caught the triathlon bug and became certified with IRONMAN U. Since then, Ken has loved working with beginner, intermediate and middle of the pack athletes and enjoys helping them reach their goals and the podium. Before retiring, Ken worked with Chevron Products company as a product engineer and now spends his time swimming, biking, running and coaching. Welcome to the Cool Down Ken.
Ken Page: Thank you for having me, Vanessa. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Vanessa Ronksley: Oh, it's wonderful to have you here. And what tip do you have to share today with us?
Ken Page: I think that the one area that most athletes could really improve on is the bike. And off season is a great opportunity to work back on that threshold. Work and try to increase your FTP before you start working on your long distance endurance stamina again. So building that FTP, trying to increase those watts, this is the opportune time to do that. And for me I think the best way to do it is through indoor training and getting those quality workouts in during the week on the trainer.
Vanessa Ronksley: What do you recommend to your athletes? Like, do you have any suggestions for how to execute those indoor training sessions? Because I know there's a lot of different ways that you can bump up that FTP a lot faster just by altering a few things here and there. So what do you tell your athletes to maximize the building of this FTP?
Ken Page: Well, first I share what works for me and then I like to hear what their plans are and what they have equipment wise. And let's try to figure out the best way to utilize what they have. The price point for indoor smart trainers is always coming down. So there's opportunities to either get a new one or use one out there. And I keep trying to encourage them to go that route with a smart trainer and let those workouts get loaded directly into a platform so that you're following that workout experience. That's specifically how it's written for that athlete. And for the first six to eight weeks, follow that workout. I tell them to use erg mode because that keeps them as honest as possible. When you're in free ride and you're just not feeling it, you're dropping down. But if you really want to hit those watts, ERG mode is the way to go. For the and I say first six to eight weeks, try to use erg mode at least two to three of those workouts a week, especially the threshold, the zone two, don't use erg mode. I want them to use free ride, shift the gears, but watch their cadence. And I tell them don't watch movies on Netflix or Prime or one of those because really they get lazy and then they lose the focus of what they're doing on the trainer. The trainer should be for one reason, to focus on that workout and it's got a purpose. So utilize that time to do the workout the way it's designed and written and get that quality workout in and for the workouts during the week, they're not that long. They're usually typically an hour, hour and 15 minutes. So devote that time to do it. Right. And with quality in mind.
Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, I do notice a huge difference being in free ride vs erg mode. I actually picked up a trainer off like a. I purchased it off of a. It was called Gumtree in Australia. And the ERG mode did not work. And so I was in freeride for the better part of a year. Um, and. And where I noticed the biggest difference was in those, like, 2x16s, 2x18s. Being in ERG mode for 18 minutes is a lot different than being in free ride for 18 minutes. Um, but I often find, like, another aspect of that is sometimes you go too hard. Like your. Your watts are just like jumping all over the place. And so you actually tire yourself out more than if you're in ERG mode for some people.
Ken Page: And that kind of translates over into open road when you're biking. If you're doing all that spiking in freeride where you're seeing those watts going up and down and you do that same simulation on the road, you're going to have that same result. Your legs are going to be exhausted by the time you get done, and your run's going to be horrible. So practicing that feeling and that sensation in erg mode sometimes can translate into that same ride in free ride. And also when you're doing free ride and yeah, after that six to eight weeks and you're trying to do that same threshold work, focusing in on that free ride and hitting that target for that 12 to 16 minutes and not having those spikes, you can't be watching a movie. You've got to really be zoned in on that workout. So I use Zwift and also use my phone so that I can play with the bias. So another cool thing with the bias is if you're feeling real good and you're done with that threshold work and you've got a remainder of 30, 40 minutes in zone two, leg's still feeling really good. You can increase that bias for that 40 minutes to the upper end of that zone two, and you're actually going to be getting stronger doing that. So I'm always encouraging them to try to bump that zone two bias up a little bit. Even if you're working up the lower end of the threshold or that zone three, zone four, the total duration of time for average watch for that workout is going to be higher. If you can increase that for the workout so they don't look at it that way. A lot of times they go that threshold. Work is done. Now I'm just going to just pedal as easy as I can in the easiest zone too that I can. That's the wrong approach.
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