What Triathletes Can Learn from Swimmers

TriDot Podcast Episode 244

What Triathletes Can Learn from Swimmers

Announcer: This is the TriDot Podcast. TriDot uses your training data and genetic profile combined with predictive analytics and artificial intelligence to optimize your training, giving you better results in less time with fewer injuries. Our podcast is here to educate, inspire and entertain. We'll talk all things triathlon with expert coaches and special guests. Join the conversation and let's improve together. Together.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yes. Hello everyone and welcome to the TriDot podcast. A lot of people say that they could never do a triathlon because they fear the swim. If people have the courage to try the sport, they often say that swimming is one of the biggest obstacles. And then there are the athletes that can swim, but they're always chasing a faster swim split. We have two pure swimmers with us today who are going to give us some swimming swimming insight to help us triathletes have better success in the water. Dede Griesbauer grew up in the water and set records in swimming from a young age. She accumulated 10 NCAA All American honors at Stanford, was a member of the USA Swim National Team, and was a gold medalist at the 1989 Pan Pacific Championships and the 1991 Pan American Games in backstroke before transitioning to a successful career in triathlon. She narrowly missed the Barcelona Olympic team. Welcome back to TriDot Podcast, Dede.

Dede Griesbauer: Thank you so much, Vanessa. It's great to be back.

Vanessa Ronksley: We also have with us professional triathlete Tim O'Donnell. Tim joined his first swim team at the age of five and eventually set multiple school records, earned repeated district championships and all state honors as the captain of the varsity swim team. He swam for two full seasons at the United States Naval Academy before committing to the sport of triathlon and becoming one of the world's most successful and experienced American long course triathletes. Tim, it's great to have you back on the podcast. And you are now coaching with TriDot for Team Salty Bears. How is that going?

Tim O'Donnell: Thanks, Vanessa. Well, first I just have to say reading my swimming resume after Dede's just made me feel a little bit bad about myself. Luckily I was only It's like, here's Dede and all of her accomplishments and then Tim is also here. It's like I feel like I'm on a podcast with Rennie, you know, reading Rennie's accomplishments. Then I got story of my life. But no, Vanessa, it is awesome to be here and it's, it's been a blast this year getting Team Salty Bears off the ground and starting coaching one on one myself as well. So you know, I was out, out at IRONMAN Texas, a couple weeks ago. 42,512. That number is how many steps I took running around the run course yelling at all of our athletes. So I didn't know that I was going to get so much training in being a coach, but it's pretty amazing.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah. That is incredible. Um, that's a long day, isn't it? I think it's actually harder to be a support person than it is to actually do the race itself.

Tim O'Donnell: Definitely.

Vanessa Ronksley: Well, I'm Vanessa, the average triathlete with elite level enthusiasm. We are going to start off as usual with our warmup question, settle in for our main set topic and then wind things down with a cool down.

Announcer: Time to warm up. Let's get moving.

Vanessa Ronksley: How much do y' all love watching sports? And when you get to see it live, there is nothing like being part of an amazing and passionate crowd. For our warm up question today, I am curious what our two professional triathletes will say. If you could watch one major sporting event live, what would you choose and where would it be located? So let's start with you, Tim.

Tim O'Donnell: Oh, wow. I mean, I think you gotta say the super bowl, right? You can't beat that. And somewhere, somewhere warm where it's outdoors, you know, I don't want it in a dome.

Vanessa Ronksley: That sounds perfect. What about you, DeDe? Which sporting event would you want to.

Dede Griesbauer: My husband will divorce me for not saying the Ryder cup because he is a golfer through and through. My answer honestly, having been a part of the event two times would be the US Olympic Swim Trials. I think there is no more emotionally charged meet because there's always someone you've never heard of who's going to have the race of their lives and become an Olympian. And then someone who has been at the top of the sport forever is going to have a rough day. And suddenly their hopes and dreams get dashed. And this year in particular, they're hosting the Olympic trials this summer at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis. So it' actually in a proper like football stadium. They're building a pool in the middle of it. So the capacity is going to be enormous. And there, there's, for me, there's nothing like the US Olympic Swim Trials. It's just such an emotional meet.

Vanessa Ronksley: I actually got shivers all over my body when you're describing that. So I think maybe I might have to visit this sporting event at some point in my lifetime. That's an awesome answer.

Dede Griesbauer: I love that shivers. Got Super Bowl.

Tim O'Donnell: I go. I go first. I go first. And Dede, I still makes me look bad after the fact. Do you guys. Should I log off? Do you even need me on this podcast?

Vanessa Ronksley: Oh, yeah.

Tim O'Donnell: Dede's got this. Dede's got this.

Vanessa Ronksley: We need you too!

Dede Griesbauer: We need you.

Vanessa Ronksley: I think for me, I. I'm going to go with the epically Canadian answer here and say the Olympic gold medal game in hockey and Canada has to be playing. That's number one. And the location obviously has to be somewhere in Canada because I have this very fond memory of when the Olympics were in Vancouver and my husband and I actually went to the Olympics to watch one of our friends compete in speed skating, long course speed skating. And we were on our way home during the Olympic medal gold medal game and we were in the airport and it was overtime and no one was getting on the plane. Like they were calling people and paging everyone and every. The waiting room was just getting more and more people and no one was actually leaving because it was so exciting. And when Canada finally scored the winning goal, everyone ran away and it was like a ghost town. It was crazy. So I can only imagine how it would have felt to been in that actual crowd and. And the energy just must have been indescribable. So that's my answer. Um, I'll. I'll be posting this question on the I Am TriDot Facebook community page and I can hardly wait to see your answers. So make sure you're a member of this group so you can be a part of this and many other swim, bike, run conversations with thousands of other athletes who love triathlon as much as we all do.

Announcer: On to the main set, going in 3, 2, 1, 1.

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Vanessa Ronksley: My days in the pool as a kid revolved around typical swim lessons. You know, doing handstands, creating synchronized swim routines with my sister, and retrieving things from the bottom of the pool. And I, I don't consider myself to have a swim background. And I think if you were to ask a group of triathletes if they started swimming as an adult, the majority of them would raise their hands and call themselves adult onset swimmers. The, the swim is something that most triathletes say we get through so that we can hop on our beloved bikes and into our favorite running shoes. So what can we learn from two professional triathletes with pure swim backgrounds? Hopefully they will be able to share their experiences and help us non swimmers learn to love the swim as much as the bike and run. Tim Dede, you have less than an hour to convert us all to swim lovers. So are you up for the task?

Tim O'Donnell: I mean, I've been married to Rinny for 10 years and she's still not a swim lover, so I don't know how much I can get done in an hour, but let's go. Let's do it.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, that's perfect. So both of you started swimming at a very young age. Did your parents put you in swim lessons or was it something that you asked to do as, as a child? Tim, let's start with you.

Tim O'Donnell: Well, Vanessa, I was the youngest of four, so I didn't get asked to do anything. I just had to go with the flow. And we were living in Northern California at the time. We joined the summer league swim team called the Roseville Sugar Bears. And you know, my siblings were going to practice, so they asked how young could you be? And they said, yeah, sure, five's fine. So they threw me in there with them and that started it all.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's awesome. And so is there any relationship from Sugar Bears to Salty Bears?

Tim O'Donnell: I think maybe like subconsciously there was because I always love that name. It was just we, you know, as Salty Bears. We wanted to be fun, light hearted, family oriented and, and yeah, maybe subconsciously that's everything I loved about the Sugar Bears. So it's a little nod, I think, to that first swim team.

Vanessa Ronksley: I love that. I also love that you're the youngest of four kids. That must have been pretty awesome growing up in a family. So many kids.

Tim O'Donnell: I got beat up a lot.

Vanessa Ronksley: And that's why you're such a good athlete, right?

Tim O'Donnell: Builds resiliency.

Vanessa Ronksley: Exactly. Dede, what about you?

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah, I think for me it was a similar environment. My swim career started with summer league swimming, but I learned to swim before I joined the team. Was a water safety thing. I think it's a healthy choice for any parent to make to make sure that your child is safe in the water. And by my recollection, one of my first bathing suits, I mean, it could have been more than three. It had a hamburger and french fries on it. And just the sheer act of putting on the hamburger and french fries swimsuit, like, made me excited to go to the pool. So I loved it from the start.

Vanessa Ronksley: So I'm just thinking, first tip, if you want to love swimming, you need to purchase a bathing suit with a hamburger and french fries on it, obviously.

Dede Griesbauer: Well, or whatever, whatever your favorite food or thing is, you can certainly get just about anything on a swimsuit these days, right?

Vanessa Ronksley: Oh, that's, that's, that's priceless. I love that so much. Uh, now both of you have had a lot of success in the pool from your early swim days through to college and beyond. What is one of your favorite memories from your days in the pool?

Dede Griesbauer: You know, certainly the experiences kind of similar to triathlon. I got to travel the world with swimming and have experiences that I wouldn't likely have had otherwise. But honestly, the thing I take away, it's funny because the thing you live day in and day out is, oh, I missed, you know, that one rep by a tenth of a second. And you wear that like a hair shirt. But now, all these years later, removed from my swim career, the things I remember are, you know, the experiences with my teammates and the relationships with my teammates. My Stanford swim teammates to this day remain some of my closest friends. And when we pick up the phone, even though we don't talk every day, it's like nothing's changed. And so it's those, it's those relationships and the things that we experience together. Winning NCAA championships and really traveling the world together to go to remarkable places and swimming against other people from other countries, it just, it's a life changing experience. So, yeah, the medals and the records are all great memories, but the thing that I take with me the most is the experiences with, with my teammates.

Vanessa Ronksley: I a hundred percent agree with being on any team. I think that there, there's just something about working towards a common goal. And in swimming, you're still in an individual sport, but you're still a team. And so going through those experiences with your teammates and it solidifies those bonds quite in an amazing way. So I can totally understand why that's what you remember from your days in the pool. Tim, how about you?

Tim O'Donnell: Obviously, the social. As a kid, the social aspect for me was awesome. I loved just being. I love the kids that were on the team with me. But when Dede was talking about team, that really struck something with me as well. I was a distance swimmer and the distance swimmers, we always stuck together. We're usually in the end lane, you know, doing the longer sets. And I remember one, one night at Navy, our coach gave the distance swimmers. The main set was like nine and a half thousand meters. Just the main set and all the other swimmers from the other stroke discipline, swimmers, everything. They're all at dinner. I think the coach, our coach even left and the lights go off and there's just like, like his office light is on and like a couple like safety lights and we're just grinding away. And I'm like, I love, like, yes. Like, this is us. Everybody else is eating dinner, like being weak and this is us getting stronger. And I just, I don't know that that was just really a cool moment for me to just know that you're. You're working hard when other people aren't. And fast forward to last year. I have another favorite. This isn't just the swimmer, but another favorite team moment with the JDC and Julie Dibbons crew. We were doing relays and the relay was 50 meter sprint or. Yeah, 50 meter sprint. Get out. You had a power walk to the slides in the well. And. And one of my teammates, I can't remember her name. I think every maybe rhymes with Gigi. Well, she jumps on this.

Dede Griesbauer: She.

Tim O'Donnell: She power walks up to the slides, not realizing. Hops in the slide. That's broken. That's out of order. There's no running water on this slide. If anybody has, I'm obviously talking about Dede. So seeing Dede slowly come out of this acrylic tube like her skin, like smoking from the skin burns and just plopping into the pool might have been my. The most favorite moment I've ever had in a swimming pool in my entire life.

Dede Griesbauer: The sound of my butt cheek sliding down the. Is one of those things we're never gonna unhear.

Tim O'Donnell: That sound will haunt me for the rest of my life, even if it's at my expense. That is so great.

Vanessa Ronksley: I love that so much. Now, Tim, what did you learn from swimming that you have incorporated into your time as a pro?

Tim O'Donnell: As I look back at my swimming career, probably more now, so as I've gone through my triathlon career, but I was a pretty bullheaded swimmer, and I did focus on working hard and only working hard. And I had coaches that really embraced that when I was younger. I did have one coach in high school that tried to get me out of it and tried to get me to focus more on my stroke, my technique, my efficiency. I wish I had paid more attention to that. Looking back, looking backwards now, and it's not really something I take with me. It's something. It's a lesson I took with me of a mistake I made when I was a swimmer. So I learned that. And for running, I really did. I did. You know, I worked with running specialists and really focused on becoming a more efficient, better runner. And, you know, I think having that lesson from swimming where I finally realized that, hey, I could have been a better swimmer if I had not just tried to be the hardest worker, but try to be, you know, the most efficient and best athlete overall.

Vanessa Ronksley: Dede, what is something that you've learned through swimming that has become a part of who you are as a professional triathlete?

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah, I think, you know, when I was presented with the opportunity to race professionally as a triathlete, I was so excited about it because I saw it first of all, it had never occurred to me that that was a thing that I could do, because there was quite a gap between when I finished swimming and when I started triathlon. So when I finished my swim career, I just thought, well, my life as an athlete is over. So being presented with the opportunity to be an athlete again was such a gift. And I thought, well, gosh, isn't this great? I can correct a lot of the things that I feel like I could have done better in my swimming career. And one of them, I mentioned it before, you know, we're. We're all competitive. We're driven with big goals, and I would leave a workout focusing on the one rep that I missed by a tenth of a second, and I would just dwell on that one rep for the rest of the day. And I would just. I would wear it, and it would bother me, and it would literally alter my mood for a long time until I could get back in the pool and fix it. And I think as a triathlete, none of us loves to have a bad session or, you know, have to pull the plug on a workout because you're just failing miserably. But I've Learned to take that a little bit and it's, I mean, it's going to happen with all. We train three different sports, varying degrees of intensity. On any given day, you're going to have a session or a repeat or whatever that just doesn't fall your way. And I think taking that in stride and in perspective and just leaving it with the session and moving on is something that I've taken from my swim career. It's something I didn't do very well in swimming, that I think I do a better job in triathlon.

Vanessa Ronksley: That really resonates with me because I think that's something that I focus on a lot in my own training, is I'm really, really hard on myself and I tend to do. What you did as a swimmer is that you take it with you and you wear for the rest of your day. I'm just curious, is there anything that you have done to allow yourself to separate that. So when you finish your workout, is there something that you say to yourself or is there some kind of a separation technique that you use to allow yourself to move forward and not take it with you for the rest of the day?

Dede Griesbauer: Well, part of the blessing of triathlon is that there's always another workout just in a few hours. So there's really not time.

Tim O'Donnell: You know, you don't have time to dwell.

Dede Griesbauer: You can't dwell. You've got to, you've got to finish the session, get home, get something to eat, change your gear, and get out the door for the next session. So part of it is just a simply time management.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's perfect. I love it. That's, that's great. Let's dive into the swimming specifics now. So for an athlete that is a pure swimmer, like Tim and Dede were in college, what does a week of training look like versus a triathlete training for three different sports? Tim, let's go to you.

Tim O'Donnell: Well, I, I just, I just want to put a little caveat here. I, I do believe swim training has changed drastically since I swam full time. It definitely has changed drastically since Dede swim full time because that was a long, long time ago.

Dede Griesbauer: She's not gaps. Just kidding.

Tim O'Donnell: We didn't, for us, it was, you know, we would swim doubles several times a week. Six to seven days in the water, really a week. Plus the doubles. I know our training trips at Navy, the distance swimmers were doing, you know, well over 100k a week those weeks. So pretty high volume. We, we, we did a lot of strength training. I remember at the Olympic Training Center, Also watching like, I think it's Team Wolverine, which Phelps and Eric Vent and a lot of those Olympians were on. They seem to be in the water twice a week and doing, you know, just kind of at least one separate dry land session. So, so three sessions a week. But it's, it's a lot of staring at that black line. I tell you what, I, I never mind. I never really minded, you know, doing a long ride because it, I knew the alternative was staring at a black line for four out of three or four hours. So it was all good.

Dede Griesbauer: That's why you should have been a backstroker, Tim. We got to look at the sky.

Tim O'Donnell: I ran. You see my head tilt. I ran. Same thing when I do backstrokes, right into the main line every time my rudder's not straight. Dede.

Vanessa Ronksley: Dede, what about you? Was your, was your swim training, how was it different than what you do as a, as a professional triathlete now?

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah, as, as Tim pointed out, the swim training has evolved in, in such an incredible way. And actually one of my Stanford teammates, daughters came and trained with us one summer when she was home from college and, and swam with us. And I was picking her brain a little bit. She was, was swimming at Stanford and I was picking her brain a little bit about like what their training was like and I was just like, wow, like swimming must be fun now because when we swam it was, it was, you know, at minimum 20 to 22 hours a week in the water, 10 sessions to two of two and two to two and a half hours, plus three days in the weight room, plus two days of dry land, which for us was running, which for most swimmers, I mean that's actually what got me to love running was our swim coach used to make us run as cross training for swimming. And most swimmers really don't, particularly the breaststrokers with the knees don't love to run. But I all of a sudden was introduced to running and I was like, this is amazing. But so then we had these two dry land sessions which was just running stadium stairs, stretch cords, pull ups, things like that that were not in the weight room but outside of that. So I had a conversation with somebody at one point and swimmers, I hope it's different than triathlon. Swimmers over train their distance. I mean Tim and I have just outlined Tim swimming a hundred K weeks for a race that was a mile. Right. He's training 25 hours a week for a race that takes 15 minutes. I was training 20 to 25 hours a week in the pool for a race that takes two minutes. Um, so swimmers tend to over train their distance more than I think any other sport. Um, and there's a, there's a value in that, that there's frequency and repetition, but it's also some insane, it's some insane hours for a race that really takes such a small amount of time.

Vanessa Ronksley: That is so true. That's not something that I actually thought of before, but when you're, when you're thinking about a short course race and swimming, that is a, that is a lot of training for like you said, for seconds. Right. It's sometimes under a minute that those, all of those swims take. So that, that is something that's interesting. I find it also interesting that it seems like in whatever sport you're doing there is that aspect of overtraining and in particular, I mean overtraining is rampant in the triathlon world unless you're a tried out athlete of course. So it's just, it's fascinating to, to think that, yes, that there is over training everywhere. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, now this is something that I wonder about a lot. And you see this with age groupers and also with the pros like Lionel Saunders and Sam Long. I mean these two are faster than most could dream of as an age grouper. But these two pros often talk about what a struggle it is for them in the water. So why is it so, so difficult for some people to improve their swim times when they don't have a pure swimming background?

Tim O'Donnell: Well, I, I think there's a lot of factors for sure, honestly, like body, body type and muscle mass and bone density are all factors. Right. The ability to activate your transverse abdominis and keep your hips up, some people struggle with that. And maybe it's tightness in the body or you know, just muscle composition, but these are all things that, you know, if your body's built one way, you can train really hard. But you might not respond the way as some others would with similar, similar stim stimulus.

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah, I, I, I agree. I think my coaches always used to tell me that what made me a talented backstroker was the hypermobility of my shoulders. It was a blessing because my catch in the backstroke I could reach deeper and catch more water because my shoulders were so hyper mobile. The downside is that I spent a lot of my free time in the training room getting treatment on shoulder tendonitis and things like that. But there's a mobility thing that comes in, thoracic mobility, shoulder mobility, ankle mobility, to be able to Be a good kicker. I mean, I have a toe point like a ballerina, but I'm definitely not a ballerina in any way, shape or form. But I made that toe point from 20 years of backstroke kicking and that ankle mobility. So there are some physiological restraints. And then I think when you are dealing with an adult onset swimmer, part of the challenge of swimming, it's, it's easier if you're on a track, trying to learn run drills. You can feel what your knees are doing or you can feel what your elbows are doing. You can feel how if your foot's hitting the ground on the heel or the toe when you're in the water, all of those feelings are distorted. The water distorts your sense of feel. So what feels like, you know, your coach can say, put your hand in the water here, you're like, I am. And then all of a sudden they take a picture. Like the water just distorted, distorts your sense of feeling. And so it's really hard when you're trying to think about where your body is and where it actually is. It's a big challenge.

Vanessa Ronksley: That is so true.

Tim O'Donnell: And I remember watching film and being like, oh, really? Trying to work on a particular part of my stroke. Be like, oh, I nailed it. And then I see the film and I'm like, what was I doing?

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah, like, big changes. You have to change something so big and like what you see is so small.

Tim O'Donnell: Yeah. And it goes both ways. Right, too. Like that mobility, ankle mobility that you have from decades of swimming, it's not ideal for running either. Right. So there's certain, like, body trade offs that we all got to work with when we're doing this crazy sport of three sports that we call triathlon.

Dede Griesbauer: Right. You look at another pure swimmer in Lauren Brandon, and part of what makes her a great swimmer is she literally was born with flippers on her feet. She has ridiculously large feet. I mean, she's a tall woman, but for a woman her size, she has such large feet that I bet she wouldn't want that. Once you get to the marathon, Right. Like, you want to trip that in. Right. It doesn't help her. So there are physical, physiological issues. So, you know, working on technique and repetition and frequency of feel for the water, they can all help. But there are just certain things. Like what made Phelps amazing as a swimmer was the fact that his arms were just unusually long. What made Janet Evans great as a swimmer is that for someone of her body size, her lungs were just slightly too large. And it made her a remarkable Swimmer. So it's these physiological freakishness things that, that make us good swimmers but don't necessarily apply to triathlon in general.

Tim O'Donnell: So yeah, you know, there's a great, I saw a great body comparison like chart or photo of. It was Phelps and one of the great canyon runners. I can't, can't recall who. And Phelps is what, six, six something DD what six, four? I don't know, maybe.

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah.

Tim O'Donnell: And, and this runner is like 5, 4, maybe 5, 6. Their inseams are the same length. So this elite two hour marathon runner who's as tall as Rennie has these massive legs and then Phelps has these short legs with this massive torso. But you find, I guess you find your way to the, to the right sport.

Vanessa Ronksley: Now I'm curious, is it possible that there is a mindset that is unique to swimmers that impacts performance or do you think that improvement barriers again are more related to technique or some physiological factor?

Tim O'Donnell: Well, when you said mindset, I, I immediately went to breaststrokers. They are, they have different mindset. Sorry, I don't know man or D. Right. Like breast strokers are different. Right.

Dede Griesbauer: Honestly, it's. Every stroke, every stroke is different. Like the sprinters are a little bit of odd ducks too. Right. Like every, every discipline. Like I would think of the peculiar ones. Yes, breaststrokers are a little bit unique and sprinters are a little bit odd. Distance swimmers are definitely whack. Like and I think the, the, the flyers and the backstrokers probably have the most in common. But I mean every discipline has its own peculiarity about. And part of it is just the drastic nature of swim training and what, what you endure. And I think, you know, is there a particular mindset? Yeah, I think Tim's story about like the lights going out in the middle of a 12k session when everyone else is eating dinner and your immediate thought is this is amazing. Like that is a swimmer's mindset in that I think there's so much monotony involved and so much repetition involved that your tolerance for that sort of thing, like you can find amusement in the smallest thing. I think you're forced to have that camaraderie with your squad mates because there is so much monotony involved. That Yeah, I think it's a super unique, it's a super unique sport.

Tim O'Donnell: Yeah, I mean think about it. If you're doing a long run, if you're at a high school cross country team and you're going for an hour run, you're chatting and you're, there's, there's Interaction. But I, I've never calculated the actual time, but I imagine the percent of a swim practice that your head is in the water in complete silence. Other than the sensory, you know, reactions of the water and bubbles. It's, it's a, it's a unique skill that you have to build and develop to. You kind of manage that, that, that environment and how you handle it. And I do think it can make you strong. And when you are able to apply it in other, other means like, like running a marathon or going out for 180k bike ride by yourself.

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah, the self talk. Like you've got to get really good at your own inner dialogue.

Tim O'Donnell: Yeah. Because you can't hide from it when you're underwater. Right. Like there's nowhere to go, there's no one that can save you. You, it, you and your brain and the bubbles.

Vanessa Ronksley: I think it's important to note as well that when you are swimming, the ability to maintain focus for that long of a period of time, that is definitely a skill. And I think as society changes with our lack of ability to pay attention and to focus on something for so long, I think that's something that is unique to swimmers. Now that you mention that and point that out. And it also boggles my mind that more swimmers haven't converted to the sport of triathlon because they have this, this, this built in ability that they've been practicing for so many years. Why aren't they joining triathlon? Because they'd be really great triathletes with that amount of focus. Um, so is there anything pure swimmers do in training that is different from how triathletes train for the swim? Should we mimic these things as triathletes or not?

Dede Griesbauer: I think one of the things that as swimmers, and we touched on it earlier, not in terms of it being a blessing, but the overtraining because that's not the blessing but the repetition and certainly the consistency, the frequency. So you develop that muscle memory by just doing something so frequently and repeated over and over, over and over. So maybe that means for triathlon that instead of running, you know, three days a week for, you know, 50 minutes to an hour, you do one run that's an hour and then some shorter runs so that you're doing it more frequency and getting in touch with that feel and that sort of repetition without adding miles necessarily. But I think consistency and repetition are, are some of the benefits to swim training that, that Triathletes could benefit from.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, absolutely. What, what you think, Tim?

Tim O'Donnell: Well, the first thing that came in mind was kick sets. You don't, you don't quite do the kick sets that, you know, a swimmer or swim team would do. One of the things that I found, triathletes are always in a rush. You know, time is very valuable commodity when you got three sports to train for and, and you're training for an IRONMAN. And I noticed when I swim with triathletes, even when we try to do specific stuff, which I think swimmers have the advantage of, they can spend more time doing drills, working on specific strokes. Kick set, kit, set, kick sets, like I said. But, you know, when with triathletes, if we're trying to do drills, it's very rushed through. People just want to get the yard in. They want to count the 50 yards, and they don't really care about the drill. It's okay to step back and not do it on a fast interval, slow down, focus on the drills. There is, there is a time and there's a necessity and there's a place for that in your swim training, even as a triathlete.

Vanessa Ronksley: So what, what kind of kick sets are you talking about? How far, how far would you go?

Tim O'Donnell: I am, Dee knows this. I am probably, I'm the worst kicker probably in the world. I, I was pretty sure I was gonna cut from the navy team. When the coach saw me on a kickset, he used to just like visibly pissed at me. I'm like, this is what I got, coach. I was pretty sure I was gonna get the X. But yeah, no, we're not. We train. When we go to Australia, we train with an age group club team, very fat, very fast, immerse and you know, we'll, I get to put fins on because I'm, I'm the old guy that can't kick. But yeah, you're doing, you know, you know, could be a K or 1500 meter kick set towards the end of the practice, which, you know, I don't necessarily think you need in triathlon. Like I said, you know, time is a commodity. But the way that swimmers can focus on certain parts of the stroke, whether it's kick or pulling, with a little more detail, I think is a big advantage.

Dede Griesbauer: Kicking has become such a big part certainly of swim training that one of the things, that woman who spent some time training with us, our triathlon squad, who was still a proper swimmer at Stanford, one of the things she relayed about their swim training is that they have one session a week that is just kicking. They may warm up a 500 swimming and then the Rest of the workout is all kicking. So the kick is such an important part of the swim stroke. Now in triathlon, it's different, right? So the kick is adding propulsion to the stroke. And that is a much more key component for pool swimmers, is it is a propulsive force to your stroke. For triathletes wearing wetsuits, you're going to be using your legs an awful lot during the rest of the day. So the kick becomes, yes, somewhat about propulsion, but more about timing and balance in the water. But it's still an important skill that we as triathletes don't spend any time hardly doing because most people are terrible at it. And the other thing I would say is if you have the time, do your kicking with, without the fins and try to figure it out. Like, what makes me faster. Do I focus on the up kick, the down kick, both the amplitude of the kick, the frequency of the kick, and things like that.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's a lot of things to think about that I had never considered before.

Tim O'Donnell: That's my favorite part of this whole podcast. That was great. Yeah. No, I'm serious. That was wonderful insight.

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah.

Vanessa Ronksley: And there you go. That just goes to show that when you are swimming, these are all of the things that you can be thinking about in the monotony that some people might consider to be swimming and doing those massive kick sets. I did a 50 yesterday without fins on and I was like, why is this taking so long? I need to do this more often. So thank you for giving me that.

Dede Griesbauer: Idea that, yes, I do need to.

Vanessa Ronksley: Take the fins off. And also some things to think about when you're kicking, like be and being consciously aware of what you're doing with your legs. That. That's golden. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. We're going to switch a bit of a direction here. So pure swimmers, they spend way more time wearing goggles in the chlorine than triathlons. Triathletes do. So are there any next level swim gear? Best practices triathletes should adopt from pure swimmers? What do you think, Tim?

Tim O'Donnell: Goggle. Goggle choice. Just say no to those big masks. Like, just. If you're like this, like, just.

Dede Griesbauer: Can I. Can I add one?

Tim O'Donnell: You'll be fine. Some normal goggles.

Dede Griesbauer: Can I add one more? The logos on the cap go on the sides of your head, not the front and the back. So when you put your swim cap on, the logos go on either side so that when you're swimming, the people on the side of the pool can see, see the logo they don't go front and back. That's just a hashtag pro tip. Yep.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay. I love that tip.

Tim O'Donnell: These are all like, tell me you're a triathlete without telling me you're a triathlete. Like little warning signs.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, that's absolutely true. So do, Is there anything that you can suggest for like foggy goggles? Because a lot of people struggle with foggy goggles, especially in open water swims, I find. Are there any tips and tricks for that one?

Tim O'Donnell: I mean, you can buy anti fog, which really help. You're actually not supposed to get your lens wet before the swim and that, that can actually ruin the, the anti fog on there. So, you know, a lot of people are like throwing water in that. That's actually a no, no, so don't do that. Or I, you know, honestly, if it's a big race, if it's a big race, I, I would always wear new goggles. Obviously it's got to be the style brand that you, that you are used to wearing. So it's not a new fit. You know, that they work. You know, they don't leak, but they, they always come coated with anti fog. So fresh pair of goggles on a big race. And IRONMAN, you've already spent a thousand. Over a thousand bucks entry plus travel. You're. You're a couple grand into this thing. Go treat yourself to a new pair of goggles.

Dede Griesbauer: Yep. And the other thing I would add to that is I always, always, always bring an extra pair of goggles down to the swim start so that if I am putting my goggles on and the nose teeth breaks or the strap does something kooky, or all of a sudden there's a last minute mishap, you don't want the sudden panic of, oh my gosh, I don't have goggles. I always bring a second pair down and as I'm getting into the water and everything seems good to go, I'll just hand them to an official or an announcer and say, hey, if anybody has a goggle malfunction, here's an extra pair and it's my pay it forward to the rest of the field. But having an extra pair of goggles, either way, you know, if you have a support person that's close to the swim start that you can hand them off to or just have a backup pair, as Tim said, you've made a big investment to be there. Be prepared for all of the eventualities.

Vanessa Ronksley: That, that's really, really kind of you, Dede. I love that so much. That's so wonderful. I. Can you imagine? I just got a pair of goggles from Dede Griesbauer and then me. That's epic.

Dede Griesbauer: Because she took the new pair and gave me the used pair.

Vanessa Ronksley: All that. Many of us triathletes are, you know, pretty diligent about fueling for bike and run sessions, but we often forget a little fuel and hydration can be helpful in the pool as well. So what are swimmers doing for their fueling in their sessions? Those are pretty long sessions that they're putting in. Should we. Should we follow what they're doing?

Dede Griesbauer: Well, again, sports nutrition has evolved since I slam. We did not. And this is. Honest to God, true story. I didn't even have a water bottle on the deck. I walked out with my gear bag and that was it. And I'd be in the water for two and a half hours with no calories. No, no electrolyte, no water. Like, we didn't have a. We didn't have water bottles on the deck. I think it was probably one or two generations of swimmers after me at Stanford, where they finally had the big igloo cooler and you could, like, go get a cup of water in the middle of the. You know, we just. It wasn't on our. It wasn't on our radar. I mean, fueling outside of the sport certainly was, but fueling during the swim, we just. Not even a water bottle, which is why almost every swim, if you get in the water after our squad gets out, I've left my water bottle there. So there you go, my gift again.

Tim O'Donnell: I leave bottles everywhere at the table, probably full.

Dede Griesbauer: It's probably. I. You know, that's how I was brought up in the sport. And I think there is, you know, I think Brett Sutton's a big, you know, advocate of no fueling during the swim because you don't fuel during the swim in an IRONMAN race. But I think in this particular case, training is very different than. Than racing in that you will perform better in training and get more out of your session if you are properly fueled, which does mean oftentimes electrolyte water and oftentimes a gel or two on the side of the deck. If you feel like you're starting to slide off the. The cliff. I think is. Is good to top up your calories during your swim.

Tim O'Donnell: Yeah. And I think timing a day with those sessions too, right. DeDe you know, if you're. It's your first session of the day and it's early morning, you know, maybe you don't need Four goose in, in the swim. But if you just come off of a hard, very hard run and then you're expected to do threshold swim, Julie, you might need a couple gels.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, that makes total sense. I, I notice for myself when I do the swim, I find that I don't necessarily need something during the swim, but if I don't have something immediately after, I feel horrible for the rest of the day. And that includes the electrolyte top up and, and the carbs and protein that are needed after the session. So I think that's a really valid point that you make.

Tim O'Donnell: And one more, one more point of that, Vanessa. You have to also remember that your body is very inefficient at using calories when you're swimming in the water because you're in a, in a cool, a cool environment. If you know the, even if the water is 84, you're, you know, 15 degrees, 14 degrees below your body temperature. So in terms of efficiency, it is way less efficient than, than riding or running in terms of every cal. Like what percent of your calories in actually go to moving your, moving your muscles and, you know, propelling you through the water. A lot of it's heat, heat regulation. So there, that's, there's a reason why you feel super hungry after a long session because your body was working really hard to stay warm and it's burning a lot of calories. So fueling during the session helps you lessen the burden of what you need to replenish afterwards. Which is another, another way to think about, you know, fueling during a session and that it, it is okay to fuel during a session because everything you do during and after is gonna help you the next day and the day after that, because it can. Nutrition can really lead to cumulative effects in the negative proportion.

Vanessa Ronksley: So just a little side question off of that. Is there a certain amount of time that you would indicate that you would want to fuel in the pool? Like if your session is less than an hour, do you think you need to fuel in the pool? Or if it's more than an hour, what, what time frame are we looking at for adding those carb sources in?

Dede Griesbauer: I think it depends on what you've done before and what you're planning to do after. Like Tim said, if you've come from a hard run and you're for time management just going to get all your sessions done stacked up, you definitely need to fuel it probably more than you would if that's your only session of the day and you've just had breakfast and it's a 45 minute session and then you're going home and going off to whatever the rest of your day is. So I think how it stacks up with the rest of your day's obligations depends a lot on how and how much you would fuel. But I think it's a great practice, no matter what, to just get in the habit of having sort of those two scoops of recovery whatever with some protein, some carb and some electrolyte in your bottle just to sip on it while you're in your car going off to whatever it is that's next. I think that refueling is absolutely critical on every session. But the fueling during I think depends a little bit. Like if I'm going into a, you know, a 60 to 90 minute swim and it's like a solo session, I will have had breakfast and maybe an hour later I'm doing that session, I wouldn't fuel it probably at all. And then just have a post workout something there.

Vanessa Ronksley: There can be a lot of anxiety about the swim part of the triathlon. Are we alone in that? Do, do pure swimmers have similar anxiety?  And what can triathletes learn from swimmers when it comes to entering the water with more confidence?

Tim O'Donnell: You know, I think swimmers have the advantage in that they are already naturally comfortable in, in the water, in the environment. I even noticed that when I was in the Navy and went to dive school, just not having, you know, done any scuba dive training before. My comfort in the water was a huge advantage. But open water is a different beast. And I have seen swimmers, very good swimmers, not be able to handle that environment just for the unknowns or whatever you want to call it. So I think there's, there's kind of two, two different elements at play here in this comfort equation.

Dede Griesbauer: Yeah, I actually have this, I had this conversation with blast from the past, Kim Woffler, retired pro. She's been retired a good long time. And she was a collegiate runner, very good runner. And we got into, we got into it one time debating. She's like, you're just so lucky. She's like, you're a good swimmer. You don't have any of that stress or anxiety. You get knocked in the swim, you don't care. You just take it in stride and move on. She's like, it's just, it's such an advantage to be a good swimmer. And I was like, okay, Kim, I'm gonna do the math for you. Like, I'm a good swimmer. I get out of an IRONMAN swimming at the time, in about 50 minutes. A couple of minutes more than that now. But at the time it was about 50 minutes. I was like, you're not as strong a swimmer and it might take you just over an hour. So I have a 12 minute lead on you. I'm like, you've got five hours on the bike and three plus hours on the run to catch me. I'm like, the math does not work in my favor. But her point was the anxiety. And I think what, what I advise swimmers and people who are uncomfortable in the water. And it actually comes back to what you said in your very, in your opening sentences. Vanessa, I think how I got to be a good swimmer and love the water was playing in the pool. Like the pool was my babysitter in the summertime. My parents would drop me off and be like, we'll be back at five, you know, have a good time. And we would be doing dolphin dive races and dropping down to the bottom of the pool with our goggles on and trying to count the tiles on the bottom of the pool. And we call it like, you know, I call it silly strokes, like grabbing your right arm with your left hand and trying to swim from one end of the pool to the other. It's playing in the water, but as adults, we get in and we try to swim laps and we've got our watches and we're trying to pay attention to, you know, the workout and, oh, I got to get my goggles on and I gotta, I gotta hit my watch and the buttons. We don't get in the water and play and just be in the water and hang out underwater and do things underwater and feel the water and play those kind of games where, yeah, you're not swimming efficiently because I'm holding my left ankle with my right hand. But doing stuff like that forces you to feel the water and figure out how to move your body through the water. Sculling backwards and upside down, I think are great tools to learn how to move your body in the water and therefore to be more comfortable in it.

Vanessa Ronksley: So what you're essentially suggesting is that if we have anxiety in the water, we need to go and fly.

Dede Griesbauer: You need to go and play in the water.

Vanessa Ronksley: Yeah, yeah. And feel the joy of being in the water because it is very joyful. And I know from coaching, I coach this beginner triathlon group and when I look at the athletes, the range of swim ability is like, it's so massive. But you can tell who loves being in the water. You can see in just the way that they move their bodies. It's like they're having a really good time enjoying themselves in the water. And so I think that you just really hit home with that point is that learn to love being in the water, and that will allow you to feel relaxed and less anxious. And recently, I had the pleasure of attending one of the TriDot pool schools. And. And it was an amazing experience, both in the community that was built and also in all of the knowledge that I gathered from those hours in the pool. Tim, I know that you've been to pool school as well, so I'm wondering what your thoughts are on how the technique that was delivered in pool school, how that translated, and if it was a good measure of the technique that you learned when you were an athlete as. As a swimmer.

Tim O'Donnell: Oh, Vanessa, we, You know, we touched on this earlier, and Dede mentioned how hard it is to make changes to your stroke, particularly when you. You don't see it. So having being in an environment like pool school, where you have other people watching you, giving you feedback, much like if you get the opportunity, some of the masters group and have a coach on deck, having those eyes on you is so important for you being able to productively make changes to your stroke. And when I went to pool school, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I did not. I. I thought it was going to be a sham. I'm like, there's no way that these guys are going to be dropping this much time. So I was like, I was just. I. I went. But I wasn't expecting much, and I was blown away. I got in the pool, I did all the drills. I got faster by the end of the weekend. But most importantly, I saw how much faster all the age group athletes were getting. I mean, we're talking massive time drops per 110, 12, some people, 20 seconds per 100. And I love the drills. Not just because of the drills, but the way they were put out to the athletes, the way they were explained, the visualizations that were given to them. It was almost like drills that I knew I should do, but better cues so I could remember how to do them and a logical order to help you actually progress, your progress, your stroke. And I said to Jeff afterwards, all right, you're right, I was wrong. You are smart. I am not very smart. That is amazing. So now we're. We're working on hopefully getting one in Boulder here soon. So stay. Stay tun. Stay tuned. We might. We might be having one with me on deck this time and not on the water, helping you all realize the greatness that is TriDot Pool School.

Announcer: Great set everyone. Let's cool down.

Vanessa Ronksley: I sure am excited about it. Coach Cooldown tip today everyone. I'm Vanessa, your average triathlete with elite level enthusiasm. We have Brady Hoover in the house and he is here to talk to us about strength training. He has too many certifications to list, so we'll just say he holds rockstar status across many disciplines from strength training to running. Speaking of running, he is blazing fast, y'.all. Not only is he a seven times Boston Marathon qualifier and a six time finisher, he holds a 2:48 Marathon PB and a 16:34 5K PB. He claims that he has slowed down a little bit because he has two insanely energetic little kids. Wonder where they get their energy from. But I'm pretty sure that his current Zone two is my zone six. So we'll just say that he is fast. Brady is a personal trainer for most of the hours of his week and a triathlon coach for the remainder of. He has been a triathlon coach since 2016 and with TriDot since 2019. He mainly coaches intermediate to top age groupers who often finish on the podium, I might add, and has helped many an athlete qualify and race in the Boston Marathon. Something that many people do not know about Brady is that he has some unfinished business in the tri world. Would you like to share with everyone what this? This is Brady?

Brady Hoover: Oh yes. I am hungry, hungry, hungry for Kona. You know, I was training for IRONMAN Arizona and I knew that was not the race that was going to get me that qualification. It was my second IRONMAN. But I had made mistakes and learned from my mistakes of my first IRONMAN that I was going to do better and move up in the rankings in Arizona. And I screwed up my nutrition, you know, so I don't know where I stepped up in the competition. But you know, by my estimation I lost about 20 minutes due to my era. But I knew that wasn't the one that was going to get me to Kona. I knew I needed another year of training. So I was planning on Racing Mont Tremblant 2020. And we all know what happened in 2020. We had the pandemic. Everything shut down and that's when we had our second child. Right. Right before the pandemic. Um, so what, it worked really well leading up into Tremblant, you know, having an infant because it's a little bit easier when they're not running around. Covid derailed everything. I still got my sights on it. But, you know, right now, I don't have the time to put in that kind of volume. So my secret to success right now is, you know, staying in that developmental phase, staying strong, doing my strength training, getting stronger, so that when I do have that chance to come back, I know exactly what I got to do to execute on race day to give myself that, you know, that chance.

Vanessa Ronksley: There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that you will realize this dream someday. And if you're ever having a tough day and need some cheerleading, you know who to call. I'll share my enthusiasm with you to make you feel unstoppable, even though you already are unstoppable. But we're here for a tip. So let's hear your strength training tip for us today.

Brady Hoover: So strength today is talking about muscle imbalances. Muscle imbalances most often lead to injury. Let's take the IT Band syndrome, for instance, is when I like to go to. Because it's so, so common in our sport. Typically with all the pounding of running, especially running downhills, puts a lot of stress and overdevelops our quads, you know, we're pushing down on those pedals. When we're cycling, we can put out a lot more power pushing down than we can pulling up. If we're not strength training, this is going to cause imbalances, going to cause a weaker glute, and because of that, our hips aren't going to be able to stabilize. So every stride we take, you can only imagine what that adds up to be after a few weeks ramping everything up. If your hips can't stabilize, you're going to get hurt. So strength training for longevity in a sport is a must. It's something that should not be skipped. So if you're not doing it yet, you need to start.

Vanessa Ronksley: And what are some of the ways that an athlete can check to see where they might have some of these imbalances?

Brady Hoover: Good question, Vanessa. So best thing to do would be to go to a local gym, sign up, and have a functional movement screening done. Or if you know, a personal trainer. Some of us are certified in functional movement screening. We can actually put an athlete through a screening, and we can see, you know, the biggest highlight, especially for it. Band syndrome is the hurdle step, where we'll measure the inseam of the athlete's leg, and we will set up a hurdle to the right height. That athlete should be able to stabilize on one foot, lift that leg up high in the air, extend at the hamstring, and step over that hurdle, they may lose balance. We're not after that. It's, how is that leg getting over the hurdle? Do they have to swing it out to the left? Do they have to swing it out to the right? They should be able to lift up and put it directly straight out in front of them and over that hurdle step. If they can't do that often, the reason why is because they lack glute strength and hamstrings.

Vanessa Ronksley: And what are some of the most common imbalance issues that you usually see?

Brady Hoover: Weak core and weak boots.

Vanessa Ronksley: That is something that, that I've heard a lot, even in the general population, is weak glutes. Because we, we sit so much. You know, we have improper movement when we do use them because they're not firing properly. And have you heard, I don't know if this is actually a real thing, but have you heard of the term glute amnesia? Is that actually a thing?

Brady Hoover: I haven't heard that term. But, you know, I ask everybody, to my clients that I see in the gym, they're not, they're not athletes. And my first question is, what do you do for a living? Because I want to know, are they on their feet all day or are they sitting all day? Because if they're sitting all day, they're going to have overdeveloped quads, they're going to have weak glutes, weak hamstrings, and a weak core because they're not sitting in that chair correctly. So I know exactly how I'm going to program for them and where I'm going to start them.

Vanessa Ronksley: Right. And so it sounds like for a lot of people, there's a big importance for, for strengthening everything in the, in the posterior chain. Like if we're all just, you know, quad dominant and we have this lack of strength in the glutes, it sounds like everything on that backside of the body should be something that we need to take care of.

Brady Hoover: Yeah. So, you know, simple programming would be like, you know, especially for us athletes, is for every push we should be doing two poles. Unless our body is imbalanced, then we can do a one to one. But most people I work with, it's like a one to two. Work with a dentist and it's like a one to three because they're, you know, they're sitting in the chair, their hamster, their shoulders around and forward, they got shoulder pain, their body is a mess. Hairdressers as well. Hairdressers, though, not so bad because they're standing. But, you know, I see the Same common problems between hairdressers and dentists. Triathletes always, you know, generally a weak core, generally round, you know, shoulders rounding forward. Because they're lacking in strength, they don't do their stretches. If you want longevity in this sport, it's absolutely critical that you strength train.

Vanessa Ronksley: Okay, so can you give us two exercises that could help to strengthen the posterior side of the body?

Brady Hoover: Yeah. So, you know, starting in kind of a prep phase, pre foundational phase before we get to our strength phase. Single leg deadlift is one of my go tos. I love the single leg deadlift. You know, you're selecting a light weight, doing, staying in a 10 to 12 rep kind of range because we want to develop good movement patterns in that before we load it with some heavier weights and drop that rep count and increase, drop that rep count and increase the stress where we start working with that heavy weight. So we want to be strong on that single leg before we load it on two legs. Oftentimes people want to go and they want a barbell deadlift and it's like, yeah, you could do that, but you should really start with the single leg deadlift. Get really strong, get the movement patterns down there. Because imagine if you can do it on one leg, what can you do on two, especially when you're stable. Yeah, so that was one. And I do like the wide grip lat pull down. Everyone do this wrong too is they round their, they grab that, they grab that lat pull down bar up ahead of them. Their shoulders are rounded forward and I always say set those shoulders back ever so slightly. Your lat, you should feel your lats before you even pull down. So pull those shoulders back and then pull. Go ahead and pull that bar down right down just below your chin.

Vanessa Ronksley: That's a really great cue actually when you're doing that exercise. I think it's even built into some of the TriDot strength videos is the band pull down. And that's a really good cube cue is to just drop your shoulders and pull them back before you start to engage on that movement. So yeah, that's great.

Brady Hoover: High volume swimmers that we are those of us that are training for half distance and full distance IRONMANs. I mean we are just so tight in the front of the shoulder. So it's absolutely critical. You actually have to think about pulling those shoulders back when you're pulling down. Otherwise you're just reinforcing bad movement.

Announcer: Thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe. Subscribe and share the TriDot podcast with your triathlon crew for more great tri content and community. Connect with us on Facebook, YouTube and Instagram. Ready to optimize your training? Head to TriDot.com and start your free trial today. TriDot, the obvious and automatic choice for triathlon training.

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